Limiting factor for RPMs?

[JeffMcKC]

Curtis Boggs did some heads for a 430 2 years ago that make that on the 3rd pull with no tune

[CDMBill]

I think it would be interesting to explore the OHC four valve vs. OHV two valve question further but likely not in this thread. Are the four valve mod motors allowed in the EMC classes this year? IIRC they weren't before and I've wondered why if they aren't considered competitive. BES's current gen Hemi certainly showed what was possible with that technology as did their Edelbrock headed "Cleveland" last year. I suspect a fully sorted four valve will have a distinct advantage over the other engine types. These could be Northstars, Mod motors or Ferrari's as Chrysler is now part of Fiat. EMC isn't necessarily the be all end all but its what we've got at the moment and I sure hope our BS boys take home the big check this year with their 'ancient' hemi.

Back to the OP what ever it was. Sorry for the hijack.

[JeffMcKC]

They will never make it a even feild of this many cubic inches and have at it.

[moparmaniac07]

I think it would be interesting to explore the OHC four valve vs. OHV two valve question further but likely not in this thread. Are the four valve mod motors allowed in the EMC classes this year? IIRC they weren't before and I've wondered why if they aren't considered competitive. BES's current gen Hemi certainly showed what was possible with that technology as did their Edelbrock headed "Cleveland" last year. I suspect a fully sorted four valve will have a distinct advantage over the other engine types. These could be Northstars, Mod motors or Ferrari's as Chrysler is now part of Fiat. EMC isn't necessarily the be all end all but its what we've got at the moment and I sure hope our BS boys take home the big check this year with their 'ancient' hemi.

Back to the OP what ever it was. Sorry for the hijack.

I remember reading that the mod motors weren't allowed because they couldn't fit on the dyno. Not sure if that's true, but it's what I'm remembering.

[yellomalibu]

Wow, this really turned into "one of those" threads.

I'll throw my uneducated / self taught opinion in the mix.

I may be right or wrong, but ... all other things being the same, if you have a 350 with a long stroke and a small bore, I believe the engine will make more torque down low and "rpm faster" at the bottom of the rpm scale.
Conversely, if you have a 350 with a short stroke and a large bore, the valves will be more unshrouded and the short stroke will facilitate a higher rpm capability - like a nascar engine.

As far as engines revving with or without a load - look at it a little more to the extreme: put the engine in a truck pulling a trailer. Which one rpm's faster? The one that makes more torque in a lower rpm range. Every time, I am sure. From a stop, a 350 that makes 500 hp at 7500 rpm would be a turd compared to a 350 that makes 250 hp at 4000 rpm... because the second 350 makes more torque lower in the rpm range. (I'm thinking manual transmission - not stall converter - for the sake of argument in this analogy)

With all else being the same, the same cam, heads, intake, etc - but one 350 was a long stroke/ small bore and the other was a short stoke/ big bore - which one would make more torque down low? I don't know, but I'd guess it would be the one with the longer stroke...

[yellomalibu]

They will never make it a even field of this many cubic inches and have at it.

Isn't that what nascar did back in the day? Crazy high compression, heads ported to the max, cam, carbs, and gears optimized to their engine combination for a particular track (short track or super speedway).

It would be cool if an old nascar engine builder could chime in on this with his expertise.

[JeffMcKC]

NASCAR is famous for writing rules in pencil trying to even the playing feild, raising roof lines, more front bumper,,,,,, it goes on and on. They limit bore and stroke and as TC found out what size your crank shaft throw dia can be even.

[38P]

5.3 LS.

Real similar to the high zoot, expensive to manufacture, doesn't fit in most engine bays Ford Mod. Why spend all that money on all that tech if it doesn't do anything for us?

Meanwhile I can pick up a base 5.3 LS engine out of the junkyard for $400. How much does the 2012 5.0 Ford TiVCT cost from a junkyard?

Hmm? I post figures for OEM stock engines and you post a chart for an aftermarket modified engine (not a stock $400 junkyard engine).

Frankly I don't care if every cheapskate Bangshifter in the whole world runs the ghetto LeSs. Knock yourselves out.

I now own four DOHC 4-valve vehicles, including a TiVCT 5.0 and I'm having plenty of fun. In fact, other than a 460 and some antique A-series BMCs and "Brand X" inline sixes that I already have, I might never swap in another OHV for a project. You wouldn't believe all the "wow factor" comments I've heard at shows and in the staging lanes/grids when I've got the hood open. No LeSs ever built has the visual impact of a DOHC.

Considering that: (a) Ford builds hundreds of thousands of TiVCT 5.0s and (b) the vast majority of Bangshifters believe all the Anti-Ford BS, I expect to be able to pick up all the DOHCs I want in a few short years. They'll fit in anything that I'm building or would ever want to build.

I also anticipate that eventually there will be someone like a CHI that will market hybrid DOHC heads and other conversion parts for the millions of more pedestrian modulars.

Keep spreadin' that LeSs Gospel, man, so that the prices on what I want stay low. ;)

Perhaps coincidentally, the only two OEMs in the world who have stubbornly stuck with OHV V8 are the ones who went bankrupt and had to be taken over by the government . . . . ;)

[38P]

No I have you and TC under "Post Whore", it still shows your post, no matter how off track and Bizzar they tend to be.

You can always count on old Jeff for a delightful and uplifting compliment . . . .

[dieselgeek]

Calm down sparky, that was the only LS 5.3 dyno graph I could find. Sounds like it has a z06 stock cam in it, which doesn't make that much difference (off boost anyhow).

Meanwhile, my only point, and the one you danced around, is that Ford's modular motors - for all that high tech - simply do not show any benefits over the 2v counterparts, whether that's a metric Hemi or an LS engine. I am not sure why you are bagging on the LSs unless it's really just a case of Ford Fanboi Syndrome, which doesn't seem your style? The ford modulars IN NO WAY leave either of the other two teams in the dust, meanwhile they are more complicated, they have a ton of known flaws (spark plug projectiles, anyone?), they are huge and heavy, and don't fit easily in many places.

They're a lot of fun with boost, and I don't mean the pansy blowers that Ford installs at the factory, I'm talking 30+psi of snail driven fury. THAT is when a modular engine starts to become fun. You should try an aftermarket turbo system on one of them in your corral, you might be surprised what they are capable of.... and yes, I did just end a sentence in a preposition.

[38P]

I think it would be interesting to explore the OHC four valve vs. OHV two valve question further but likely not in this thread. Are the four valve mod motors allowed in the EMC classes this year? IIRC they weren't before and I've wondered why if they aren't considered competitive. BES's current gen Hemi certainly showed what was possible with that technology as did their Edelbrock headed "Cleveland" last year. I suspect a fully sorted four valve will have a distinct advantage over the other engine types. These could be Northstars, Mod motors or Ferrari's as Chrysler is now part of Fiat. EMC isn't necessarily the be all end all but its what we've got at the moment and I sure hope our BS boys take home the big check this year with their 'ancient' hemi.

Back to the OP what ever it was. Sorry for the hijack.

We discussed the EM rules in the titanic Gromer v. Hunkins thread (still a Top-10 Bangshift thread). Apparently DOHC was made legal in the restricted class at the 11th hour and was still banned in the top class (for the thinnest of reasons). None of the big name engine builders showed up with one (likely due to the lack of sponsorship, the intake manifold rules, and the lack of knowledge/development time). Given the pervasive prejudice against DOHC, and the insular nature of the EM field, who knows when we'll see a serious, well-funded effort with a DOHC in EM competition.

[dieselgeek]

We discussed the EM rules in the titanic Gromer v. Hunkins thread (still a Top-10 Bangshift thread). Apparently DOHC was made legal in the restricted class at the 11th hour and was still banned in the top class (for the thinnest of reasons). None of the big name engine builders showed up with one (likely due to the lack of sponsorship, the intake manifold rules, and the lack of knowledge/development time). Given the pervasive prejudice against DOHC, and the insular nature of the EM field, who knows when we'll see a serious, well-funded effort with a DOHC in EM competition.

Nobody's afraid of a Ford mod motor in here, myself included. I have tuned at least 100 of them. The problem is, nobody can figure out how to make Engine Masters power levels with them without boost.

Hook me up with a guy who thinks he can, I'll happily help him tune it and make the show at EMC. What's very interesting to me is, I go to Engine Masters and the event officials (very friendly and helpful) ASK us to find people to bring more interesting and diverse entries to the competition... then we have the guys like you Speedzter, I'm sure you're a great guy in person, but you play this armchair quarterback role making all these accusations of EMC being unfair, blah blah blah. you should come down this year to spectate. The other thing that gets to me re: EMC is the guys bitching that EFI gets an advantage over the carbs "because of advertising reasons" - if I have to hear Hunkins and Dulcich explain WHY they had to allow EFI to be able to use single plane intakes one more time I think i"ll puke. But does that stop the carburetor weenies from crying like little whiney brats all day long? nah.

[38P]

Calm down sparky, that was the only LS 5.3 dyno graph I could find. Sounds like it has a z06 stock cam in it, which doesn't make that much difference (off boost anyhow).

Meanwhile, my only point, and the one you danced around, is that Ford's modular motors - for all that high tech - simply do not show any benefits over the 2v counterparts, whether that's a metric Hemi or an LS engine. I am not sure why you are bagging on the LSs unless it's really just a case of Ford Fanboi Syndrome, which doesn't seem your style? The ford modulars IN NO WAY leave either of the other two teams in the dust, meanwhile they are more complicated, they have a ton of known flaws (spark plug projectiles, anyone?), they are huge and heavy, and don't fit easily in many places.

They're a lot of fun with boost, and I don't mean the pansy blowers that Ford installs at the factory, I'm talking 30+psi of snail driven fury. THAT is when a modular engine starts to become fun. You should try an aftermarket turbo system on one of them in your corral, you might be surprised what they are capable of.... and yes, I did just end a sentence in a preposition.

DG, most would accuse me of being a "Ford Fanboi" (Right, Brian Lohnes?)

I disagree that the DOHCs don't show benefits.

2011 5.0 82.2 hp/L (factory stock)
Boss 5.0 88 hp/L (stock)

LS-1 56.14 hp/L
LS-6 71.05 hp/L
LS-7 72.14 hp/L

Certainly not all stock modulars are all that great. The SOHCs can be disappointing without boost. The iron versions are somewhat heavy (the aluminum ones, however, are all under 500 lbs). Fitment takes some extra effort and expense in some pre-Fox models. The spark plug thing does not involve any of the DOHCs and is IMHO overblown.

But even the unwanted SOHCs show minimal wear after a couple hundred thousand miles of fleet service. That's one of the reasons that some police agencies stocked up on CV PIs before production ended.

I've always maintained that Ford has been its own biggest enemy here. Had it countered the LeSs threat earlier with more DOHCs and TiVCT, instead of fooling around for a decade with only a few thousand of the good engines a year, the playing field might be more level. Even if Ford simply hadn't discontinued the Terminator engine when SN-95 production ended, it would have made a difference. And the fact that Ford still doesn't offer a game-changing EcoBoost V8 and a DOHC head for the wide-bore 6.2 Boss are more missed opportunities that help keep Ford's competitors in the game.

[Bob Holmes]

Fords won both classes last year at EMC. With pushrods in place.

The DOHC Ford is an excellent engine, but its technology is daunting to the average hot rodder, its heavy and its physical dimensions are huge. Its larger than a 426 Hemi. Every machine shop in the nation can work on a traditional V8, very few work on the DOHC.

In time it will gain acceptance (swaps into Fox body Mustangs are becoming common) and you'll see more people tinkering with them. As more junkyards gain an inventory of them, they'll come down in price. I recently found one in a Lincoln, and the guy was willing to sell it to me for $350 (scrap value), but it was stuck and I didn't want to take the risk of having another piece of yard art.

I like the DOHC, and intend to race with it in the future. But I have a great deal of respect for the LSx. As I replied to you in a different thread, its inexpensive, compact, serves the needs of its manufacturer, and has great acceptance both stock in place, and in the aftermarket. It has been an absolute success.

[dieselgeek]

I disagree that the DOHCs don't show benefits.

2011 5.0 82.2 hp/L (factory stock)
Boss 5.0 88 hp/L (stock)

LS-1 56.14 hp/L
LS-6 71.05 hp/L
LS-7 72.14 hp/L

There's the problem, you're looking at peak power per displacement - and nod average. The only time it's worthwhile to talk peak numbers per cube, is when we're racing Irrigation Pumps, Generators, or Locomotive engines.

Certainly not all stock modulars are all that great. The SOHCs can be disappointing without boost.

I am glad you admit this! because every engine you're comparing now, is 2011 or later. Meanwhile, there's alegacy of 20 years of modular motors that just plain sucked in every category from maintenance, to peak power, to average power...

The spark plug thing does not involve any of the DOHCs and is IMHO overblown.

If Miller SPX makes a special tool for the "spark plug thing" then it's probably not overblown. Just like the Ford Diesel engines... gack

But even the unwanted SOHCs show minimal wear after a couple hundred thousand miles of fleet service. That's one of the reasons that some police agencies stocked up on CV PIs before production ended.

I've always maintained that Ford has been its own biggest enemy here. Had it countered the LeSs threat earlier with more DOHCs and TiVCT, instead of fooling around for a decade with only a few thousand of the good engines a year, the playing field might be more level. Even if Ford simply hadn't discontinued the Terminator engine when SN-95 production ended, it would have made a difference. And the fact that Ford still doesn't offer a game-changing EcoBoost V8 and a DOHC head for the wide-bore 6.2 Boss are more missed opportunities that help keep Ford's competitors in the game.

I'm glad you brought this up. Mod motors can go a bazillion miles with proper care. Excellent point. LS motors seem hit or miss, some of them are oil consuming piles of crap right out of the factory, others seem to last a little longer...