Limiting factor for RPMs?

[squirrel]

I've always maintained that Ford has been its own biggest enemy here. Had it countered the LeSs threat earlier with more DOHCs and TiVCT, instead of fooling around for a decade with only a few thousand of the good engines a year, the playing field might be more level.

My guess is that the reason they didn't make many of the good engines, is that they cost so much that the market for them is really limited. GM was smart...they figured out how to make a cheap pushrod engine that gives up a few hundred RPM in exchange for being very affordable. They also figured out how to get the necessary fuel efficiency out of it, while packing enough displacement to make it fun. Ford blew it with the small displacement high rpm thing.

The only mod motor I owned smoked....I guess they fixed that problem later.

[38P]

Nobody's afraid of a Ford mod motor in here, myself included. I have tuned at least 100 of them. The problem is, nobody can figure out how to make Engine Masters power levels with them without boost.

Hook me up with a guy who thinks he can, I'll happily help him tune it and make the show at EMC. What's very interesting to me is, I go to Engine Masters and the event officials (very friendly and helpful) ASK us to find people to bring more interesting and diverse entries to the competition... then we have the guys like you Speedzter, I'm sure you're a great guy in person, but you play this armchair quarterback role making all these accusations of EMC being unfair, blah blah blah. you should come down this year to spectate. The other thing that gets to me re: EMC is the guys bitching that EFI gets an advantage over the carbs "because of advertising reasons" - if I have to hear Hunkins and Dulcich explain WHY they had to allow EFI to be able to use single plane intakes one more time I think i"ll puke. But does that stop the carburetor weenies from crying like little whiney brats all day long? nah.

I didn't mean to start the EM thing over again.

However, I strongly suspect that Roush/Yates, Sean Hyland or others who know DOHC could make EM power levels without boost. The problem is that it probably takes $50,000 to $100,000 in development costs to win EM, which thus far, no one has been willing to spend to prove a point about 4-valve DOHC engines. The insularity is partly a factor of the time and money it takes to compete effectively.

I also suspect . . . from my armchair . . . that intake manifold selection for the DOHCs remains a barrier. Given that the dyno air intake is in the traditional "top" position, wouldn't a front or side TB present a material disadvantage? It looks like all of the competitive EFI dudes are running relatively short runner intakes with a top-mount TB . . . a style of intake that doesn't much exist in unmodified, off-the-shelf form for most DOHCs.

[squirrel]

I also suspect . . . from my armchair . . . that intake manifold selection for the DOHCs remains a barrier. Given that the dyno air intake is in the traditional "top" position, wouldn't a front or side TB present a material disadvantage? It looks like all of the competitive EFI dudes are running relatively short runner intakes with a top-mount TB . . . a style of intake that doesn't much exist in unmodified, off-the-shelf form for most DOHCs.

interesting point...racing dynos requires a different physical setup, than racing cars.

Chalk one up for Speedy.

[38P]

My guess is that the reason they didn't make many of the good engines, is that they cost so much that the market for them is really limited. .

Well then why can they now market every new Mustang with a high-reving DOHC engine at a competitive price? What changed? All I'm saying is that they should have done it in 1996 or 1998 or even 2005, not 2011!

[squirrel]

Well then why can they now market every new Mustang with a high-reving DOHC engine at a competitive price? What changed?

The price of GM cars went way up, because they had to start making a profit.

[38P]

The DOHC Ford is an excellent engine, but its technology is daunting to the average hot rodder, its heavy and its physical dimensions are huge. .

But Bob, it's not that heavy. Roush/Yates claim their production-based DP DOHC engine is 350 lbs. (albeit with carbon fiber cam covers). And check the FRPP Website . . . Shipping weight on the new Coyotes is under 450 lbs. (M-6007-M50 444 lbs. http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...KeyField=11829)

Even the old Teksed-block lincoln/SVT DOHCs are under 500 lbs. The only ones that are really heavy are the iron-block 5.4s and V10s.

I'll buy a DOHC 4.6. Lincoln V8 every day of the week for $350. The Teksed block is worth that much. . . . .

[Bob Holmes]

I bought into the advertising and purchased a 3.7 DOHC V6 that was only supposed to way 350lbs. After you weighed with all the accessories in place, flywheel and clutch, it weighed more than 450lbs. No bueno, stopped that project cold.

I love the damn things, Speedy, but you have to be realistic about the good and bad, for both engines.

You really ought to come out and see EMC, spectators are allowed. And I know this will be my last year of participation. I need to get back to racing cars. Its been a fantastic learning experience, I've met a bunch of great people, I wouldn't trade the last three years for anything.

[38P]

@ Bob Holmes

Maybe I could swap that now-useless week of vacation I scheduled for DW '12 for a trip to Ohio for EM . . . .

[dieselgeek]

Maybe I could swap that now-useless week of vacation I scheduled for DW '12 for a trip to Ohio for EM . . . .

DO IT! we'd welcome you as a guest of the Early Hemi team. We have fun scaring a lot of folks.

[Bob Holmes]

Maybe I could swap that now-useless week of vacation I scheduled for DW '12 for a trip to Ohio for EM . . . .

Now you're talking.

[CDMBill]

I didn't mean to start the EM thing over again.

However, I strongly suspect that Roush/Yates, Sean Hyland or others who know DOHC could make EM power levels without boost. The problem is that it probably takes $50,000 to $100,000 in development costs to win EM, which thus far, no one has been willing to spend to prove a point about 4-valve DOHC engines. The insularity is partly a factor of the time and money it takes to compete effectively.

I also suspect . . . from my armchair . . . that intake manifold selection for the DOHCs remains a barrier. Given that the dyno air intake is in the traditional "top" position, wouldn't a front or side TB present a material disadvantage? It looks like all of the competitive EFI dudes are running relatively short runner intakes with a top-mount TB . . . a style of intake that doesn't much exist in unmodified, off-the-shelf form for most DOHCs.

I think the reason less complex, the aftermarket for the DOHC Fords is focused on power adders, and while the Coyote may be changing that, it's new and it'll take awhile before anyone will take on the EMC challenge for an almost non-existant market. Most, not all, EMC competitors seem to be there to market their expertise or sell particular parts. I have no idea if it's actually worth the effort, maybe Barry R. Or the Hot Heads team guys can comment on that.

[Bob Holmes]

Hot Heads bagged a two month expose on early Hemis in Hot Rod. And our engine is going to be the subject of an article in Engine Masters in the September edition. I can't wait to see it.

Now, that was not expected although we all hope for some ink. Bob Walker, the owner of HHRR, is in this for the same reason that the rest of us are, to have fun, enjoy the camaraderie of the contestants, test our knowledge and theories about building the Hemi, and kick some late model ass with our OLD '54 Hemi. LOL

I think the vast majority of competitors may have started out to market their respective skills and engine platforms. What keeps them coming back time after time is the camaraderie and the challenge.

[TC]

Hot Heads bagged a two month expose on early Hemis in Hot Rod. And our engine is going to be the subject of an article in Engine Masters in the September edition. I can't wait to see it.

Now, that was not expected although we all hope for some ink. Bob Walker, the owner of HHRR, is in this for the same reason that the rest of us are, to have fun, enjoy the camaraderie of the contestants, test our knowledge and theories about building the Hemi, and kick some late model ass with our OLD '54 Hemi. LOL

I think the vast majority of competitors may have started out to market their respective skills and engine platforms. What keeps them coming back time after time is the camaraderie and the challenge.

When did the EMC start??, you know how many years ago......

[dieselgeek]

not much marketing benefit for me personally other than it's an achievement, and it pushed me to become a much better tuner with much more experience. We've taken this engine to an amazing level of development, and every single dyno pull is another data point we can use.

[TC]

Like always I wish you guys the best of luck...