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Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

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  • Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

    http://www.bangshift.com/blog/Detroi...n-t-Panic.html

  • #2
    Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

    Positive news for a change ?? About time.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

      odd that the "good news" comes from a european company, and the article pictures a foreign car.....

      And where did they get all the leaded gas anyways?

      My fabulous web page

      "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

        The Phelan article focused on drivetrain mods. Direct fuel injection is also on the way (already fitted to some engines) and promises more improvements in the "prime mover" (as they call the engine in SAE circles). Remember, performance cars were dead in 1975 - I was there and heard the obituary. I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. What too many fail to realize is that the folks at the top of the auto industry, especially in engineering, are mostly car guys and gals. To abandon us would be to abandon themselves.

        Dan

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

          "These technologies aren't free, but ZF says the new transmissions and other systems are very close to the price of the current systems they'll replace."

          The crack pipe at the FREEP must be industrial-sized.

          It's going to be worse than 1975 again for new, affordable V8 muscle. Sure, a few with deep pockets will hang on, mostly with aesthetically-inferior substitutes, such as the EcoBoost/Ecotec 4 and 6s or rare, exotic-priced V8s. But all of this new technology will most certainly cause dramatic increases in the costs of a dwindling number of truly high-performance cars. Phelan simply does not have a grip on this reality.

          And as PHR's current (and sickeningly fawning) espose' on the "stunning" EcoBoost 6 shows, much of this technology will not be "rodder friendly" in the initial years. The EcoBoost has a brace of GT15 turbos that run out of breath at 200 h.p. each. The pistons and rods are not forged. The intake and exhaust manifolds are probably the worst things this side of an antique A-series BMC. The compression/boost relationship is virtually maxed out at the factory. Thus, turning the not-so-stunning 3.5 EcoBoost into a legitimate performance engine will take buckets of money and time. (a limp 104 horsepower per liter crammed into a two & one half ton car isn't exactly the stuff of legends)

          Phelan squeals like a Detroit fanboy or someone from an OEM P.R. operation. Either that, or he sounds like someone desperately trying to convince himself that a disposable 500cc Japanese bike is as satisfying as a classic V-twin Harley. Either way, he just doesn't get it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

            Originally posted by DanStokes
            What too many fail to realize is that the folks at the top of the auto industry, especially in engineering, are mostly car guys and gals. To abandon us would be to abandon themselves.

            Dan
            With all due respect, Dan, does your conclusion come close to explaining why we got decades full of low-perfromance, hard-to-work-on, rolling biomass from all these "car guys and gals," such as the 139 h.p. Mustang II,FWD GM X-Cars, FWD Chrysler K-Cars, scores of V8-less GM FWD midsizes after 1988, Ford Tempo & Mercury Topaz, Mazda/Ford Probe (when was the last time you saw one?), Pontiac Trans Sport (Dustbuster) and Aztec, Dodge Dynasty . . . .

            Most of the bureaucrats at the OEMS would "abandon themselves" in a flash if it meant career advancement.

            And if some super-high tech Shelby Mustang V8 with a full array of fuel saving technology and aluminum/carbon fiber body work costs $100,000.00 to buy -- and because of the 2016 CAFE averages can only be produced in tiny, dealer-gougefest numbers . . . while the masses are left to fend with some piddly EcoBoost Fiesta or tiny electrified Bill Ford dream whip -- haven't most of us been in effect "abandoned?"

            In the '60s, just about any industrious young person could sign up for a new Tri-power GTO or a Cobra Jet Mustang or a Road Runner. Even the less industrious could score a "junior muscle car," such as a Ram Rod Cutlass or a 340 Swinger or a Nova SS. And on Day Two, these hard-working kids could start building their new muscle cars into a screamin' machine.

            A similarly situated young person these days usually has to settle for some horrible Korean or Japanese wusswagon. And maybe one out of 1000 has the technological savvy to get beyond adding tacky body kits, ugly stick-on "graphics", "cold air kits" and other cheap Pep Boys accessories to build any of these FWD jellybeans into some sort of legitimate "tuner" car.

            I'm sorry, but I cannot see any of that as progress.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

              Originally posted by Speedzzter.blogspot
              Dan, does your conclusion come close to explaining why we got decades full of low-perfromance, hard-to-work-on, rolling biomass from all these "car guys and gals," such as the 139 h.p. Mustang II,FWD GM X-Cars, FWD Chrysler K-Cars, scores of V8-less GM FWD midsizes after 1988, Ford Tempo & Mercury Topaz, Mazda/Ford Probe (when was the last time you saw one?), Pontiac Trans Sport (Dustbuster) and Aztec, Dodge Dynasty . . . .
              The companies have to make stuff for joe consumer...so you can expect that most of what they make will be bland junk that we don't want. Doesn't mean they don't like making a few interesting cars along the way.

              And it seems that no one WANTS to buy a strippo new performance car any more, most buyers want all the luxury crap too. Dan's claim still makes more sense to me than yours does....but the sad fact is that times have changed.
              My fabulous web page

              "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

                Originally posted by Speedzzter.blogspot
                "These technologies aren't free, but ZF says the new transmissions and other systems are very close to the price of the current systems they'll replace."

                The crack pipe at the FREEP must be industrial-sized.

                It's going to be worse than 1975 again for new, affordable V8 muscle. Sure, a few with deep pockets will hang on, mostly with aesthetically-inferior substitutes, such as the EcoBoost/Ecotec 4 and 6s or rare, exotic-priced V8s. But all of this new technology will most certainly cause dramatic increases in the costs of a dwindling number of truly high-performance cars. Phelan simply does not have a grip on this reality.

                And as PHR's current (and sickeningly fawning) espose' on the "stunning" EcoBoost 6 shows, much of this technology will not be "rodder friendly" in the initial years. The EcoBoost has a brace of GT15 turbos that run out of breath at 200 h.p. each. The pistons and rods are not forged. The intake and exhaust manifolds are probably the worst things this side of an antique A-series BMC. The compression/boost relationship is virtually maxed out at the factory. Thus, turning the not-so-stunning 3.5 EcoBoost into a legitimate performance engine will take buckets of money and time. (a limp 104 horsepower per liter crammed into a two & one half ton car isn't exactly the stuff of legends)

                Phelan squeals like a Detroit fanboy or someone from an OEM P.R. operation. Either that, or he sounds like someone desperately trying to convince himself that a disposable 500cc Japanese bike is as satisfying as a classic V-twin Harley. Either way, he just doesn't get it.

                who are you ?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

                  Originally posted by Speedzzter.blogspot
                  the last time you saw one?), Pontiac Trans Sport (Dustbuster) and Aztec, Dodge Dynasty . . . .

                  In the '60s, just about any industrious young person could sign up for a new Tri-power GTO or a Cobra Jet Mustang or a Road Runner. Even the less industrious could score a "junior muscle car," such as a Ram Rod Cutlass or a 340 Swinger or a Nova SS. And on Day Two, these hard-working kids could start building their new muscle cars into a screamin' machine.
                  It ain't like that any more - and never will be again. It was a great time, which has come and gone. You'll have to make do with mid 90s back stuff that can be tweaked and twisted. There will always be something to hot rod and as the "old days" it'll take some cash. But there's a long way between swapping in a dual point Accel into a 289 then tweaking the advance curve and a DIS that runs off a proprietary computer with no consumer interface. No going back. If a person wants to play like old days, they gotta buy old stuff.

                  Sure, you'll find somebody that may have rev-engineered the power train brain and for $$$$ you can get one and hook it to your laptop. And there will be rodders that do just that. And there will be lesser rodders - just like thee old days- that also wanna try it and just screw it all up then complain when the dealer kicks 'em to the curb for voiding the warranty. These are the same folks that in 1970 couldn't stab a distributor right and in the 21 century lock up motors by installing "cold air pipes" that suck water into the motors.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

                    Originally posted by Falcon67

                    It ain't like that any more - and never will be again. It was a great time, which has come and gone.
                    Which is what guys like Phelan don't seem to understand.

                    On the other hand, there's been some folks over the past twenty-five years who have done some brilliant stuff with EFI, turbos and other "high tech" performance equipment, so I don't see the glass as totally empty.

                    Sure, basic economics means that there aren't as many people building "street machines" today (whether out of '60s tin, '80s survivors or new cars) And the rodding of reproductions of desireable '60s cars will likely explode (much like "repro-rodding" has sustained the pre-'49 street rodding niche for years). But these are expensive solutions. The low-buck grassroots rodder is being severely challenged. Of course that has bred some awesome creativity, such as some cars featured on the MO-KAN H.A.M.B. Drags thread.

                    The real point is that the days of buying an affordable, easily modifiable NEW muscle car are gone for the time being
                    Originally posted by SpiderGearsMan
                    [who are you ?
                    .

                    What? Are you Phelan's lawyer?

                    Originally posted by squirrel
                    Originally posted by Speedzzter.blogspot
                    Dan, does your conclusion come close to explaining why we got decades full of low-perfromance, hard-to-work-on, rolling biomass from all these "car guys and gals," such as the 139 h.p. Mustang II,FWD GM X-Cars, FWD Chrysler K-Cars, scores of V8-less GM FWD midsizes after 1988, Ford Tempo & Mercury Topaz, Mazda/Ford Probe (when was the last time you saw one?), Pontiac Trans Sport (Dustbuster) and Aztec, Dodge Dynasty . . . .
                    The companies have to make stuff for joe consumer...so you can expect that most of what they make will be bland junk that we don't want. Doesn't mean they don't like making a few interesting cars along the way.

                    And it seems that no one WANTS to buy a strippo new performance car any more, most buyers want all the luxury crap too. Dan's claim still makes more sense to me than yours does....but the sad fact is that times have changed.
                    CAFE killed the "strippo new performance car." CAFE limits the number of thirsty high performance vehicles that Detroit OEMs can sell. So if you can only sell so many "get up and go jobs," the dealers and the bean-counters demand that they be caked with profit-building options.

                    Does anybody really believe that Ford could not sell thousands of base-trim Mustangs with the GT500 engine and suspension if the price was right? But why would Ford use up the "V8" fraction of the CAFE pie for low-margin strippers?

                    As for making stuff for "Joe Consumer," it's true that a majority of motorists are "appliance motorists" who value safety, reliablilty, practicality, and fuel economy over high performance. And Phelan's also right that a lot of "appliances" now perform to the levels of some mediocre 1960s muscle cars. But what's forgotten is that the RWD "Joe Consumer" cars of the 1960s were the economical foundation for 99% of the muscle cars we revere. The fact that the cars and most of the engines were derived, in part, from mass-produced "Joe Consumer" stuff was CENTRAL to the affordability of 1960s muscle cars.

                    Most of the "Joe Consumer" cars from the automotive dark ages I mentioned were not suitable for OEM or consumer modification for performance work because of the dreaded FWD (the pathetic Mustang II being an exception . . . and yes, I am aware of Carroll Shelby's dalliance with Iacocca's FWD Mopars). The shameful heaps I listed are not from the wellspring of what "car guys and gals" would produce. (One would only need to look at what, say, BMW was building at the time to know that) Instead, they are the product of committees of bureaucrats, MBAs and accountants. And they are the types of mediocre vehicles that ceded a huge slice of the American auto market to the Japanese.

                    Because we're entering probably an even darker period (unless you have the huge income to buy one of the rare and expensive "freaks" that manage to survive), I thought the rebuttal from history was on-point. "He who does not know history is doomed to repeat it."

                    And my point is that those "few interesting cars along the way" are going to be so rare and expensive that the vast majority of enthusiasts and potential enthusiasts will never be able to buy them. What good is a 10-second Corvette (other than emissions homologation) if it costs $100,000+ and only a handful are ever produced. Phelan's "feel good" claims mostly ignore this problem.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

                      ok...sure....

                      I won't bother arguing about it, if I want a hot rod I'll build the damn thing from an old pile of crap, make it go faster than the new ones for a fraction of the cost.

                      Just like I did 30 years ago
                      My fabulous web page

                      "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Detroit Free Press to Muscle Car Fans: Don't Panic

                        Originally posted by squirrel
                        ok...sure....

                        I won't bother arguing about it, if I want a hot rod I'll build the damn thing from an old pile of crap, make it go faster than the new ones for a fraction of the cost.

                        Just like I did 30 years ago
                        And so will I!

                        But I'm not so selfish to ignore the reality that hundreds of thousands of my less-industrious performance vehicle loving brothers and sisters will be priced out of the performance car market by: (a) increased demand for "exempt" 1960s muscle; and (b) increased prices for "storebought" muscle (caused by supply and demand and the expensive technology necessary to build them under 35 m.p.g. CAFE). These unfortunate folks will simply have to be satisfied with some turbo FWD imitation (or an import or a motorcycle) I guess.

                        I don't think that industry shills in the press "blowing smoke" helps anyone understand the grim reality of what's ahead if we don't do something.

                        And don't ignore that the fewer people who are involved in grassroots motorsports, the fewer businesses will survive that support the automotive hobbies, and the easier it will be for the environmentalists and the know-nothings to outlaw much of what we bangshifters do. The 1960s ponycars and musclecars were the greatest thing ever for hot rodding because it expanded it from an insular outlaw subculture into a mass-market interest.

                        No person is (or can be) an island.

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