Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

[cjforumadmin]

http://www.bangshift.com/blog/Cash-For-Clunkers-It-s-Official-We-Got-Screwed.html

[Monster]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

Was there ever even a doubt ??

[hazegreen66]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

Cash for Clunkers was a stimulus, all right, but nobody is talking about who got the juice. Forget the dealers, forget the UAW, Toyota and the rest.

Multiply 700,000 participants by the amount of interest they'll pay on their new car loans. I'll throw out a conservative number -- $5,000.

That's more than $3 BILLION revenue for lenders, which is just about the amount of taxpayer money spent on the program. Are you feeling stimulated yet?

[Brian Lohnes]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

David...that's a brilliant angle that I've not heard mentioned once.

Excellent stuff.

Brian

[DanStokes]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

Yes, you're right - I'm tired of hearing about it. No one seems to have considered that it was a well intended program that DID move a bunch of dead automotive stock off the lots. Was it a cost-effective program? Probably not. Was it an evil plot by evil people - no. So let's get off this soapbox and move on.

Dan

[BigG]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

It should have been you had to buy An American Automobile and one that gets better gas milage than what you turn in.

[kevracer]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

I do not understand why Bangshift continues to harp on this subject. What is your interest in all this? This kind of story is NOT why I read this website. I hope this is the last time you bring up this matter.

[andy30thz]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

I guess I have to agree what's done is done, I mostly feel disgusted because I don't have any feeling of control over it happening again in a different format. That's why I have a hard time moving on.
Was the thought in the right place....?maybe. But there are a ton of charities that I feel I should empty my bank account to help. Do I? No. I give what is practical and what I can handle financially. When I see big brother kicking out my funds haphazardly, I'm just sick. I truly don't mine paying taxes, but I'm not working for people to waste my money.

I was doubly sick after visiting our local pick-a-part and seeing the dead soldiers. I would have to say less than 25% were whipped pieces of shit that deserved to be there. The amount of well taken care of, hell even garaged cars is staggering. Great for me looking for dirt cheap 8.8 3.73's, (there are a ton of clean 90-100K Explorers) but bad for lower income families that would have gotten full use out of these vehicles until they were used up.

[38P]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

Was there ever even a doubt ??

Nope.

Was it an evil plot by evil people [?]

Absolutely it was. Power-mad pragmatic greeniacs (the purists said it didn't go far enough) and car-hating "appliance motorist" politicians were behind this "camel's-nose-under-the-tent" program.

It was a "War on V8s."

The folks who cooked up this wasteful mess will be back with something even worse for automotive free choice. Something like big utilities and other CO2 emitting companies buying and crushing V8s for "cap and trade" energy credits.

I was doubly sick . . .

I hear you! The waste was dumber than a roomful of Paris Hiltons at a convent.

Cash for Clunkers was a stimulus, all right, but nobody is talking about who got the juice. Forget the dealers, forget the UAW, Toyota and the rest.

Multiply 700,000 participants by the amount of interest they'll pay on their new car loans. I'll throw out a conservative number -- $5,000.

That's more than $3 BILLION revenue for lenders, which is just about the amount of taxpayer money spent on the program. Are you feeling stimulated yet?

Nope. With credit tightening up all around, this would seem a short-sighted way to boost productivity.

[DanStokes]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

Having worked in the Government and in an automotive related area I have a perspective that none of the rest of you have. Not meant as a slap, just that you haven't been there.

I can assure you that, whatever the outcome, the intent was to do a good thing and get cars selling, at least a bit. No evil intent, no one feathering his/her own nest, at least on the Government side. Are there unintended results, such as the profits for the finance companies - almost certainly. On the other hand, auto finance is an industry in its own right and is necessary to make the automotive world revolve. And they have to make money - that's not evil, either. Remember, folks are paying interest on a smaller dollar amount that they would have been paying, so he finance companies are actually making LESS than they would have.

So you folks can rant at the Government all you want. It just isn't real. This doesn't mean that the program was flawless. But it WAS somebody doing SOMETHING to try to get the auto industry back on it's feet, unlike previous administrations (I'm not singling out any particular one) that were willing to watch this huge employment sector die while they sat on their hands. What it's really about is jobs. Jobs and the retirement benefits of the tens of thousands of folks who depend on what's left of these former giants.

A final note. This Forum is supposed to be free of politics. This discussion has crossed way past the line of presenting what's happening with an automotive related subject and has turned into a political statement by the operators of the site. Whoever has the more valid opinion is really beside the point - we all agreed that politics don't belong here, and this IS politics. So let's drop it and move on.

Dan

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

the federal government does not belong in the auto industry
they now own the banks and most of the domestic car business
what is our exit strategy ?
this is not political , it is just a philosophy question

[DanStokes]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

I could respond intelligently but I'm choosing to let this whole deal fall. I'll respond no more - this whole deal needs to end - NOW.

Dan

[Ron Ward]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

All politics aside, there is nothing in my price range on the new car market that trips my trigger enough to fork over big bucks and sit under a car payment for 60 months. I will stick with my car that is paid for, is ugly, creaks and groans and rattles and gets 35+ miles per gallon.

My 104-year-old grandmother put it best when she told me, "When times are hard, you should SAVE your money and only spend it wisely on things you really need." It seems to me there are many in this day and age who do not understand the validity of her statement.

I love my grandmother.


Ron

[Freiburger]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

I'm still seeking the hard numbers on how many people went back to work and how much each of those jobs cost to retain. I think the ratio is poor, and we've lost the plot on "the greater good."

Jay Rockefeller is trying to pass bills that limit the number of miles you are allowed to drive in a year. Should that be ignored on a car enthusiast board because he's a politician? No. It should be fought to the death.

I don't care if it comes from Reagan or Castro, or from wonderful people or evil people. A bad idea is a bad idea.

And I don't get why it's better to refuse to discuss it than it is to exchange logical thoughts on it. I've been influenced to change my mind about some aspects of Clunkers based on discussion here. But, overall, it's still a fiasco.

[38P]

Re: Cash For Clunkers: It's Official, We Got Screwed

Well said!

But from a long-term economic point of view, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to borrow 50 cents of every dollar blown on "Cash for Clunkers" from the Communist Chinese (or worse, the printing press), just to buy up useable assets and senslessly destroy them. And with over half of the replacement assets coming from foreign producers, it's not really much of a jobs program, either. BASIC ECONOMICS TEACHES THAT'S DESTRUCTION OF WEALTH!

If all we wanted to do was promote more car loans and temporarily bail-out the automotive retail sector, why not just pass out $3,000,000,000.00 in vouchers, collect up all the used cars traded in, and then sell them to needy families under government-insured loans?

The loan justification for the program is obviously weak.

And as Mr. Freiburger pointed out in his brilliant Hot Rod editorial of a few months back, the enviornmental justification is even weaker.

I remain firmly convinced that "Cash for Clunkers" was about a lot more than just disguising some bailout cash to Ford and car dealers.

As I wrote in my blog:

In 1850, there were an estimated 20 million buffalo roaming the Great Plains of North America.

In 1866, General Philip H. Sheridan assumed command of the U.S. Army in the frontier American West. Indigenous, nomadic native American tribes were viewed as the largest obstacle to settling the frontier. General Sheridan proposed exterminating the herds of buffalo that support the Indians' way of life. "Kill the buffalo and you kill the Indians."

Over the next twenty years, Sheridan's suggestion was de facto U.S. Policy. By 1889, only 541 buffalo could be located.

"Cash For Clunkers" is another misguided "buffalo hunt."

Only this time, the liberal greeniacs intend to "Kill the old cars" in order to "kill our automotive culture."

[Supporters] point to the "success" of "Cash For Clunkers" in Germany.

But the German "Cash For Clunkers" programs is sweeping up a whole generation of serviceable collector and sporting cars in its dragnet.

Autoweek magazine reports as follows:

"Germans also are concerned about seeing sound but aging cars disappear."

"'It breaks my heart seeing perfectly good versions of the Golf GTI going to the press,' said one Volkswagen Golf GTI fanatic. 'They're highly sought after by collectors, but all their owners care about is receiving written confirmation from the scrapyard so they can collect their rebate.'"

(Interestingly enough, much of the German "Cash for Clunkers" money is flowing outside of Germany to Spain and other lower-cost producers. Thus, Germans are losing their automotive heritage in a tax-funded boondoggle and are creating a windfall for foreign producers.)

And that's exactly what [the supporters of the] CARS Act intend to have happen here.

In the blinded minds of the radical, freedom-hating Greens, racing, hot rodding, tuning, customizing, antique car collecting and other grassroots automotive pursuits involving historic vehicles are "killing the Planet." These freedom-hating, power-grabbing, "we-know-what's-best-for-you" environuts cannot fathom why anyone would waste their time pursuing any automotive hobby or automotive aftermarket vocation in the first place. They will never understand that participation in these automotive pursuits often define much of who we are (just as hiking in the woods, eating tasteless vegan food, and blocking the fast lane in their slow, wimpy Priuses defines who they are).

The liberal "true believer" greens see such "Car Crazy" "rebels" as an impediment to their dream of banishing internal combustion and the 20th Century "car culture" to the ashcan of history. And the only way to "kill the Car Nuts" and subjugate them to the "uniform, happy, shiny, government-designed, sanitized, tamper-proof, disposable electro-micro car 'reservation'" is to flatten the "obsolete," "dirty", "rebellious" objects of our "Car Crazy" passion. In other words, crushing our supply of historic and milestone parts cars and "project cars," and thereby destroying the businesses which depend on them is in essence the "slaughtering of our buffalo."

Just as slaughtering the buffalo didn't exterminate all of the Plains Indians, a well-heeled and resourceful remnant will survive "[the ] war on Automotive choice." But our "tribes" will be much smaller, much more insular, and much less diverse. And the "entry costs" for participation will escalate dramatically.

* * * *

Make no mistake about it, "Cash For Clunkers" is a declaration of war against the automotive aftermarket and all "old car" automotive-based hobbies.

As Edmund Burke once said about tyranny "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." Burke also said, "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

Make no mistake about it, supporters of "Cash For Clunkers" and other wasteful errosions of our cherished Automotive liberties are "evil men." They must be stopped.

* * * *
This time let?s stop them from "killing our buffalo."

And where does it logically stop?

Autoextremest Peter M. DeLorenzo had an "April Fools" take on the obvious lunacy of the "Cash for Clunkers" idea:

In a major change in policy, the Obama Administration has already revised its just-announced Cash for Clunkers Plan. Called the Cash for Anything Plan, it encourages Americans to turn in - well - anything, in exchange for cold, hard cash. Got an old blender lying around? That'll get you 25 bucks. How about an old washer or dryer? Fifty bucks. An old pair of slippers? Two bucks. One of Fido's chewed-up bones? Fifty cents. You name it - the U.S. Government's buying it. .