GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

[cjforumadmin]

http://www.bangshift.com/blog/GM-Performance-Parts-Pre-SEMA-Teaser-Video-A-Crate-Engine-that-Changes-the-Industry.html

[Mr4Speed]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the

Hopefully it's an LSX motor with gen1 motor mount bosses.

[38P]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

Apparently the "Government Motors" hype machine is alive and well . . . .

Another hideously ugly, unsupercharged, port-injected, pushrod crate motor . . . yawn . . . I'm going to have to lie down.

(Wake me up when the "top secret" GMPP "reveal" is over)

If GM really wanted to shake things up, they'd crate up a high-performance, user-tuneable version of the hybrid Tahoe engine/transmission/controller/battery pack. Just think of it . . . 30+ m.p.g. cruising with rowdy V8 "bruising" just a flip of a switch away . . . whenever you want it.

Now that might live up to the ridiculous hype . . . .

It'd still be a lame pushrod lump instead of a turbocharged four-valve "Cammer" V8 with direct injection and ethanol boosting, but it would be something that could help hot rodders make their cars more practical to drive daily.

[HoosierGTA]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

Why would you want all the hassle of four cams and a timming cain that could wrap around the car when that sweet LS deseign just keeps giving and gets better all the time.Now I would like to see that direct injection on an LS though .

[38P]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

Glad you asked. It's called "power density."

Just look at the DOHC V6 that's standard in Camaro. 210 cubes and over 300 h.p. 1.43 horsepower-per-cube. That much power-per-cube simply cannot be done in an emissions-legal package with a pair of valves per cylinder and a bunch of antique pushrods. The venerable, "exotic" dry-sump LS7 only makes around 1.18 h.p. per cube in emissions-legal trim.

And anything that you'd do to up the LS7's power potential would work even better with the larger valve curtain area of a four-valve cammer.

Hey, I understand why antique OHV pushrod lovers cling to the familiar past. Flathead lovers did the same thing a couple of generations ago.

[Schtauffer]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

What other naturally aspirated engine make 500 hp and gets nearly 30 mpg's?

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

Why would you want all the hassle of four cams and a timming cain that could wrap around the car when that sweet LS deseign just keeps giving and gets better all the time.Now I would like to see that direct injection on an LS though .

x2 The two valves seem to do just fine with air flow on the LS engines. Considering I don't see any of the OHC, or DOHC V-8's winding up to higher rpm than the LS engines that tells me the "extra" airflow is a mute point, plus none of the OHC n/a V-8's seem to to touch the n/a pushrod engines in power (or mpg). All engines do exceptionally well under boost, and I don't see the DOHC Ford's doing anything the LS engines aren't both from the OEM and Hotrodders. Over head cam's on a V engine to me are just extra parts to buy, extra weight in the engine, and extra inertia/friction in the engine. If you tell me the MOD motor's have a more durable block that has nothing to do with OHC design or the "benefits" of having a OHC's.

I'll be interested to see what GM's got going.

[38P]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

Actually it's 505 h.p. and 24 m.p.g. (highway) http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-z06/features-specs/

Chevrolet hasn't repealed the laws of physics just because they've hyped the daylights out of cheapo pushrod V8s.

A four-valve DOHC engine of similar cubic-inch capacity and reasonable induction design would have more emissions-legal power potential than a 2V pushrod mill. For example a 2010 383-cube DOHC 4V Mercedes AMG V8 makes a luxury-detuned 514 horsepower. (1.34 h.p.-per-cube) That's nearly 100 more horsepower than Camaro's similarly-sized LS3.

See http://www.rsportscars.com/mercedes-...nz-cls-63-amg/

If I've got to pay the part-throttle penalty for all those cubes, I'd rather have more of an upside.

[HoosierGTA]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

Why would you want all the hassle of four cams and a timming cain that could wrap around the car when that sweet LS deseign just keeps giving and gets better all the time.Now I would like to see that direct injection on an LS though .

x2 The two valves seem to do just fine with air flow on the LS engines. Considering I don't see any of the OHC, or DOHC V-8's winding up to higher rpm than the LS engines that tells me the "extra" airflow is a mute point, plus none of the OHC n/a V-8's seem to to touch the n/a pushrod engines in power (or mpg). All engines do exceptionally well under boost, and I don't see the DOHC Ford's doing anything the LS engines aren't both from the OEM and Hotrodders. Over head cam's on a V engine to me are just extra parts to buy, extra weight in the engine, and extra inertia/friction in the engine. If you tell me the MOD motor's have a more durable block that has nothing to do with OHC design or the "benefits" of having a OHC's.

I'll be interested to see what GM's got going.

This is something like what is in my head but it wouldn't have came out nearly as well. And yes , I do love what they did with that ^ but just not seeing why they couldn't do it with the LS . If your wounding yes, my nuckles drug when I walk. And I am still chained to my L98 for now .

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

Why would you want all the hassle of four cams and a timming cain that could wrap around the car when that sweet LS deseign just keeps giving and gets better all the time.Now I would like to see that direct injection on an LS though .

x2 The two valves seem to do just fine with air flow on the LS engines. Considering I don't see any of the OHC, or DOHC V-8's winding up to higher rpm than the LS engines that tells me the "extra" airflow is a mute point, plus none of the OHC n/a V-8's seem to to touch the n/a pushrod engines in power (or mpg). All engines do exceptionally well under boost, and I don't see the DOHC Ford's doing anything the LS engines aren't both from the OEM and Hotrodders. Over head cam's on a V engine to me are just extra parts to buy, extra weight in the engine, and extra inertia/friction in the engine. If you tell me the MOD motor's have a more durable block that has nothing to do with OHC design or the "benefits" of having a OHC's.

I'll be interested to see what GM's got going.

This is something like what is in my head but it wouldn't have came out nearly as well. And yes , I do love what they did with that ^ but just not seeing why they couldn't do it with the LS . If your wounding yes, my nuckles drug when I walk. And I am still chained to my L98 for now .

Now if DOHC V-8 engines had OEM redlines of 12,000, heck, 10,000rpm I'd shut up, but the LSx engine in the Vette has a redline of what, 7300rpm? The Mod-engines the same? Less?

[badlanguage]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

I really wonder what they mean by "change the industry"? Is that in term of technology, performance, price, versatility, ease of installation/tuning, etc? Lots of questions and little answers. I'll be waiting to see what they show up with.

[38P]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

Why would you want all the hassle of four cams and a timming cain that could wrap around the car when that sweet LS deseign just keeps giving and gets better all the time.Now I would like to see that direct injection on an LS though .

x2 The two valves seem to do just fine with air flow on the LS engines. Considering I don't see any of the OHC, or DOHC V-8's winding up to higher rpm than the LS engines that tells me the "extra" airflow is a mute point, plus none of the OHC n/a V-8's seem to to touch the n/a pushrod engines in power (or mpg). All engines do exceptionally well under boost, and I don't see the DOHC Ford's doing anything the LS engines aren't both from the OEM and Hotrodders. Over head cam's on a V engine to me are just extra parts to buy, extra weight in the engine, and extra inertia/friction in the engine. If you tell me the MOD motor's have a more durable block that has nothing to do with OHC design or the "benefits" of having a OHC's.

I'll be interested to see what GM's got going.

The Luddites swarm . . . ;D

I'm not saying Modular versus LS in this debate (although if you built a 281-cube LS, it would get waxed by a properly-built 281-cube DOHC Modular). Nor am I saying that "old school" 2V pushrod engines aren't "adequate." You can keep up with traffic using an 80-horse flathead.

What goes unrefuted is that FOR ENGINES OF~ EQUAL CUBIC INCH CAPACITY, THE TWO VALVER SHOULD LOSE EVERY TIME TO FOUR VALVES on maximum, emissions-legal power potential.

Moreover, DOHC engines allow for much more torque curve broadening through variable timing and phasing events than pushrod engines (and yes, I'm aware of Viper's cam-in-a-cam)

I always thought hot rodding was about pushing the envelope. But for some apparently the envelope was mostly sealed in the 1950s (and I consider the LS merely an updated, lighter, cheaper-to-build version of a 1950s V8).

Modern machining and casting technology has made it possible for DOHC engines to be sold in non-exotic, mass-produced vehicles for the first time ever! Hot rodders ought to be celebrating this advancement, instead of arguing for another tired redux of the 1955 Chevy.

Nobody is going to make you build a DOHC if you don't want to. But you'd have to admit that a popularly-priced, well-equipped 6-7 liter DOHC V8 would be revolutionary (and a huge threat to LS hype).

As to less friction with pushrods . . . I wonder why it is that the most efficient gasoline cars in the world are all OHC or DOHC . . . . ;)

[38P]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

Now if DOHC V-8 engines had OEM redlines of 12,000, heck, 10,000rpm I'd shut up, but the LSx engine in the Vette has a redline of what, 7300rpm?

The flaw here is the smaller Mercedes engine I referenced that MAKES MORE POWER than the worshiped LS7 (despite being down nearly 50 cubes) and totally whips the LS3! And if we wanted to . . . INCREASE THE REDLINE (not that any of you would want to do that :D) . . . there's a whole lot less valve mass to control with a 4 valve engine . . .

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

Actually it's 505 h.p. and 24 m.p.g. (highway) http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette-z06/features-specs/

Chevrolet hasn't repealed the laws of physics just because they've hyped the daylights out of cheapo pushrod V8s.

A four-valve DOHC engine of similar cubic-inch capacity and reasonable induction design would have more emissions-legal power potential than a 2V pushrod mill. For example a 2010 383-cube DOHC 4V Mercedes AMG V8 makes a luxury-detuned 514 horsepower. (1.34 h.p.-per-cube) That's nearly 100 more horsepower than Camaro's similarly-sized LS3.

See http://www.rsportscars.com/mercedes-...nz-cls-63-amg/

If I've got to pay the part-throttle penalty for all those cubes, I'd rather have more of an upside.

And the fuel mileage on that Mercedes engine? I bet the LS engine could be cranked up a bit in the HP department to bring it up to 600 horses at the expense of mpg. And you keep talking about emission qualitly, last I checked the LS engined cars were rated as LEV, I don't see any 4.6 or 5.4 engine cars rated as ULEV. I don't buy the emissions arguement either. If we were talking direct injection vs. Multiport/etc then I'd say ok, but # of valves, no, worse if anything with the extra surface area/angles in the chamber.

And the Ford's, say GT-30 mpg (to put it in the same weight/aero class as the Vette)? It has a few more "supercharged" horses. Which means the N/A cruising should be able to have some decent mileage with a mild cam. Wait, isn't it below 20mpg?

For emission arguement, all 2010 model years.
4.6L Mustang: Smog Score = 6

http://driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults.php?year=2010&make=Ford&model=MUSTANG+GT+COUPE&x=45&y=7

Shelby GT500 5.4L Smog Score = 4

http://driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults.php?year=2010&make=Ford&model=SHELBY+GT500&x=50&y=9

Camaro 6.2L Smog Score = 6

http://driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults.php?year=2010&make=Chevy&model=CAMARO&x=54&y=4

Corvette 6.2L and 7.0L Smog Score = 4

http://driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults.php?year=2010&make=Chevy&model=CORVETTE&x=25&y=6

GM is running bigger "less efficient" : engines, and yet the smog scores are the SAME! I don't buy the emission arguement at all.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: GM Performance Parts Pre-SEMA Teaser Video: A Crate Engine that Changes the Industry?

What goes unrefuted is that FOR ENGINES OF~ EQUAL CUBIC INCH CAPACITY, THE TWO VALVER SHOULD LOSE EVERY TIME TO FOUR VALVES on maximum, emissions-legal power potential.

I completely disagree with this, the N/A 5.3L LS engine waxes the N/A 5.4L Mod (it becomes an LS vs. mod only because of similar displacements) in power and mpg.

Moreover, DOHC engines allow for much more torque curve broadening through variable timing and phasing events than pushrod engines (and yes, I'm aware of Viper's cam-in-a-cam)

And yet NO manufacture seems to be taking advantage of this!! It allows for, but no one has decidely shown up a pushrod engine. Should be clear as day if it were so. (I do agree with you on the principle, but no one is actually doing it).

As to less friction with pushrods . . . I wonder why it is that the most efficient gasoline cars in the world are all OHC or DOHC . . . . ;)

Because these are all small inline engines, no OHC V-8 engines (especially of similar displacement) are touching the pushrod engines in the mpg category.