Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

[oldrustycars]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

The reason the fuel pumps last so long is because they are immersed on fuel, keeping them cooler. And we all know pumps push better than they suck, so they're right in the fuel. Now here in the midwest, where it rains rust, I always use a die grinder with an aggressive burr to grind off the bolt heads, or right through the strap. Way less sparks. Never use a grinding disc or torch. If you're still using a trouble light with an incandescent bulb, toss it right away. gas dripping on the hot bulb, possibly breaking the bulb? Matco and others have kick ass LED, cordless trouble lights.

[Matt Cramer]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

It's all about the Benjamins, as they say. Planned obsolescence is very true. And to implement such obsolescence, they can use less expensive materials when building things than ones that would last longer, or they go with a bolt that's one size smaller than you think it should be but satisfies the design, or material thickness that's a little thinner than it could be but satisfies the design, and so on. If you plan on a part lasting for 100,000 miles or 5 years or so, it can be built for less money than a part designed to last for 1,000,000 miles. It's all about design tradeoffs, and with the auto companies making the least expensive product possible while holding together well just long enough to not piss a lot of people off is the overarching design requirement.

I'd disagree on designers going for planned obsolescence these days - with buyers' expectations now, designing a car that falls apart in less than 100,000 miles will get your products labeled unreliable junk. Most of the cars I've owned have had over 100K on the clock, and seldom have more than a couple bits of broken interior trim and a few squeaks and rattles to show for it. Not exactly a reasonable expectation to have had back in "the good old days."

[dieselgeek]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

A buddy of mine who is a GM engineer, now working in Korea (3 year stint) told me that DFO took a second place ONLY to DFM. (Design-For-Obsolescence and Design-for-manufacturability)

They want the cars to last 60,000 miles without any trouble, they don't worry about them from there. He worked in Kansas City when he told me that. The general ain't stupid, they want you to have a good car experience just long enough topay your loan down so that you can roll into a new Malibu and get that older car off the road.

DFM is a more effective approach to cost savings... DFO is next in line.

Which is why Honda kicks GM ass if you are wanting to have something that can last a million miles (with the possible exception of GM fullsize trucks)

-Scott

[38P]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

The filter was a part number that WAS NOT the same s the one all the computers said it should be (Autozone, Advance, and O'Reilly's).

That topic alone could start another rant (which I think has been done several times in the hot rodding magazines) . . . You ask the pimply-faced mope behind the parts counter computer to look up an air filter for a '98 SVT Cobra. And he starts asking questions like "Does your Cobra have an automatic transmission?" Or you tell'em you want some Champion RJ12YC spark plugs for an SBC and the kid goes through the whole "what kind of car's it in" computer drill. . . . ARGH!

If you're still using a trouble light with an incandescent bulb, toss it right away. gas dripping on the hot bulb, possibly breaking the bulb?

Vibration from ordinary handling, not dripping gasoline knocked out the expensive "rough service" bulb.

Your reference to MATCO reminds me of the time I had to flag down a tool truck . . .

A buddy of mine who is a GM engineer, now working in Korea (3 year stint) told me that DFO took a second place ONLY to DFM. (Design-For-Obsolescence and Design-for-manufacturability)

They want the cars to last 60,000 miles without any trouble, they don't worry about them from there. He worked in Kansas City when he told me that. The general ain't stupid, they want you to have a good car experience just long enough topay your loan down so that you can roll into a new Malibu and get that older car off the road.

DFM is a more effective approach to cost savings... DFO is next in line.

Which is why Honda kicks GM ass if you are wanting to have something that can last a million miles (with the possible exception of GM fullsize trucks)

-Scott

DFO may yield short-term gains. But many people's initial impressions of a brand are formed by hand-me-down cars from their youth or older used cars. This became even worse after CAFE because Detroit abandoned the low ends of the economy and youth market in favor of more trucks and vans. That's part of the reason Detroit lost most of the last couple of generations -- the kids thought that everything Detroit builds was like the DFO heaps of the 1970s and '80s.

As for the "million mile Honda" . . . Honda does DFO too.

But their genius is apparently pushing the "O" out past 100,000 and making nearly everything "O" at once.

Back in my youth when I was doing repair estimates and writing service orders, I always dreaded seeing an old Honda, Toyota or Nissan/Datsun come in the shop, because I knew (from experience) the there would be so much wrong under-the-car that I'd never sell the ridiculous estimate I was going to have to work up. At least the American cars seemed to stagger the replacement points so I didn't have to try to sell everything all at once.

I'd disagree on designers going for planned obsolescence these days - with buyers' expectations now, designing a car that falls apart in less than 100,000 miles will get your products labeled unreliable junk. Most of the cars I've owned have had over 100K on the clock, and seldom have more than a couple bits of broken interior trim and a few squeaks and rattles to show for it. Not exactly a reasonable expectation to have had back in "the good old days."

I agree (to a point). Durability is getting better. But there's still some DFO going on.

[squirrel]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

of course with the modern satellite and CAN bus systems, they just have to push a button and all the GMs quit running at once.

[BangShift McT]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

LMFAO...cannot tell you how many times in my automotive history I've thought this same thing.

"Why doesn't a ratchet fit here? Who thought to put a bolt that needed a torque-spec from God but can only be reached with three U-joint bits, guaranteeing that I'm gonna break a finger?"

"What overpromoted asshat put the fuse box behind three levels of plastic, in a box that requires a code only found in the Ark of the Covenant to open?"

And, of course, my personal favorite: "Who the F#(k decided to put a 130-hp. engine and a 2.24 rearend in a car that weighs damn near 3,850 lbs?" I thought you had to KNOW math to be an engineer...I failed math repeatedly and I can tell you that shit just don't work!

[Mr4Speed]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

I thought you had to KNOW math to be an engineer...I failed math repeatedly and I can tell you that shit just don't work!

You're killing me Bryan!

[rightpedal]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

Braub

Problems with the Pacifica again? We haven't seen you in group for a while. Remember you are always welcome at the OROOBFBDMSSRCCHCP (The Owners and Recovering Owners Of Brain Fart By Design Mid Sized Should Rot in Cash for Clunkers Hades Chrysler Products)

Best Regards
Steve

[nesabo]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

I always wonder do engineers ever work on a car, or do they always take it to the shop. Especially when i am trying to fit my 6'4" body where an elf could not fit.

[38P]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

of course with the modern satellite and CAN bus systems, they just have to push a button and all the GMs quit running at once.

They might have to add a couple of people at the OnStar call center to run that play . . . . Maybe they'll start small. Something like failing all of the Hummers in MA on the upcoming special election day . . . . :D

"Why doesn't a ratchet fit here? Who thought to put a bolt that needed a torque-spec from God but can only be reached with three U-joint bits, guaranteeing that I'm gonna break a finger?"

"What overpromoted asshat put the fuse box behind three levels of plastic, in a box that requires a code only found in the Ark of the Covenant to open?"

Well said.

For some reason that comment reminded me of parting out a rusty F100 (during the only time Speed ran flag-to-flag coverage of the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Somehow wrenching OUTSIDE for about 30 hours straight with the tv running off of a cable I strung in the yard made me feel a kinship with the sleep-deprived Le Mans crews.) I think the front fenders were held on by about twenty bolts each, some of which were completely blind . . . and all of which were rusted tight. I just imagined that the bolt supplier must have really had the goods on whomever approved that mess. But at least those "wings" weren't going to accidentally fall off. It added a whole new meaning to "Built Ford Tough" (as in Built Ford Tough to Disassemble)

I always wonder do engineers ever work on a car, or do they always take it to the shop. Especially when i am trying to fit my 6'4" body where an elf could not fit.

Nah, they're smart. They're trading in regularly on the employee discount plan and work at home on simple, old stuff. Or maybe some of them are elves . . . .

[88pony]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

of course with the modern satellite and CAN bus systems, they just have to push a button and all the GMs quit running at once.

They might have to add a couple of people at the OnStar call center to run that play . . . . Maybe they'll start small. Something like failing all of the Hummers in MA on the upcoming special election day . . . . :D

"Why doesn't a ratchet fit here? Who thought to put a bolt that needed a torque-spec from God but can only be reached with three U-joint bits, guaranteeing that I'm gonna break a finger?"

"What overpromoted asshat put the fuse box behind three levels of plastic, in a box that requires a code only found in the Ark of the Covenant to open?"

Well said.

For some reason that comment reminded me of parting out a rusty F100 (during the only time Speed ran flag-to-flag coverage of the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Somehow wrenching OUTSIDE for about 30 hours straight with the tv running off of a cable I strung in the yard made me feel a kinship with the sleep-deprived Le Mans crews.) I think the front fenders were held on by about twenty bolts each, some of which were completely blind . . . and all of which were rusted tight. I just imagined that the bolt supplier must have really had the goods on whomever approved that mess. But at least those "wings" weren't going to accidentally fall off. It added a whole new meaning to "Built Ford Tough" (as in Built Ford Tough to Disassemble)

I always wonder do engineers ever work on a car, or do they always take it to the shop. Especially when i am trying to fit my 6'4" body where an elf could not fit.

Nah, they're smart. They're trading in regularly on the employee discount plan and work at home on simple, old stuff. Or maybe some of them are elves . . . .

Ford Tough to take apart is exactly right. Todays and yesterdays job- heater core in my '98 f-150. So I have the dash and its other 26 parts of sub-assembly out in about 3 hours. Then comes the evap. box with 30 screws in it-check. Now to get to the "quick-clips" on the lines. Well, I can SEE them, thats a plus. Maybe I'll wait for my son to get home from school and squeeze his hand in there. Or cut the lines- yeah, probably that option... I'm thinking when they built this truck-they started with a heater core and built the rest around it.

[DanStokes]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

Actually ALL manufacturers plan on style and feature changes to make Joe Average want a new car, not mechanical DFO. Durability, on the other hand, is a matter of tradeoffs as previously mentioned. The year-to-year styling changes started by GM (the guy's name escapes me right now) are still happening in some lines and are designed to make you want a new one. Honda, Toyota, and other mostly foreign makers tended to make essentially the same car for 7-8 years and I suspect that folks took this as a proof of a better design. The truth is that for the past decade or more there have been a bunch of really good cars out there from both sides of the pond and from here, too. Now the US makers have a job to do to get folks to believe in our domestic stuff.

But no, DFM isn't the ONLY factor in automotive design. The bad rep of US-made cars largely owes it's Genesis to bean counters. For example, GM had an effective rust-proofing package design for the Vega but refused to implement it because the money folks wouldn't allow the additional $15 or so per car (which would have been added to the price of the car). So they trashed Chevrolet's reputation for $15/unit. This is not BS - a friend of mine designed and tested the package for Fisher Body (he was an engineer there) and was in the meeting where the accountants said 'NO". Speaking of the Vega, there is a similar story about the engine but I don't have a first hand account to rely on so I won't tell that tale.

Anyhow, the engineers DON'T hate us. The cost cutters don't, either - they just don't care.

Dan

[38P]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

Ford Tough to take apart is exactly right. Todays and yesterdays job- heater core in my '98 f-150. So I have the dash and its other 26 parts of sub-assembly out in about 3 hours. Then comes the evap. box with 30 screws in it-check. Now to get to the "quick-clips" on the lines. Well, I can SEE them, thats a plus. Maybe I'll wait for my son to get home from school and squeeze his hand in there. Or cut the lines- yeah, probably that option... I'm thinking when they built this truck-they started with a heater core and built the rest around it.

Yep. The first time I R&R'd a heater core in a 5.0 Mustang and the first line in the repair manual said "Remove dashboard" I thought I needed my eyes checked. Of course when I got to the part about "Discharge air conditioning system into an E.P.A.-approved freon recycling device," I needed my sanity checked . . . .


That reminds me of a little discussion at Car Craft on the Fox-body heater core subject: http://forums.carcraft.com/70/667361...nay/index.html

Yeah? What were they thinking?

[FoMoCo engineering lab meeting a couple of decades ago]

Dilbert: "With this 'Quality as Job One' thing, I don't see how our dealer service departments are going to make squat. When Iacocca was here, we used to make stuff so cheap that we guaranteed the dealer techs would all have groovy pads in the suburbs. Now all the good techs will want to work for Chrysler stores . . . . "


BOSS: "Don't worry about it. Look at dis. I got some dumb co-op intern from Wayne State to put the heater core on the Fox HVAC package so far up under the dash It'll take them techs all day to change it. HEH, HEH, HEH."

Dilbert: "What th' . . . "


BOSS: "And da best part! These things won't puke until the heap's years out of warranty! We ain't gonna pay a dime on it. It's all gravy, baby!"

The bad rep of US-made cars largely owes it's Genesis to bean counters. For example, GM had an effective rust-proofing package design for the Vega but refused to implement it because the money folks wouldn't allow the additional $15 or so per car (which would have been added to the price of the car). So they trashed Chevrolet's reputation for $15/unit. This is not BS - a friend of mine designed and tested the package for Fisher Body (he was an engineer there) and was in the meeting where the accountants said 'NO". . . .
Anyhow, the engineers DON'T hate us. The cost cutters don't, either - they just don't care.

At least they just ripped people off. They didn't burn anybody up for a $15/unit savings like one of their competitors did. See "AN IACOCCAISM THAT FORD WOULD RATHER FORGET" (http://speedzzter.blogspot.com/2009/...ld-rather.html)

[Matt Cramer]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

I'm a bit surprised that GM would still be aiming for planned obsolescence - keen the Cavalier platform in production for 14 years with no real changes except the engine choices, and the unplanned version will bite you hard enough as it is!

I'm a bit curious about how exactly they took that "They want the cars to last 60,000 miles without any trouble, they don't worry about them from there" directive. An engineer could interpret that as, "Make sure there's no chance in Hell it will break in 60,000 miles, just don't waste money trying to make it last forever," which for non-wear items would mean most of them last far longer. Deliberately trying to make a non-wear item fail after 60,000 miles would get you very different results.

One of the worst examples of an engineer hating mechanics has to be the last of the RX-7s. They put the fuel filter above the differential; you pretty much have to pull the rear suspension or put your hand into impossible contortions to change it. Some mechanic had to have been boinking an engineer's wife for that to have made it into production...

[IRONHEAD]

Re: Speedzzter Says: Why Do Automotive Engineers Hate Us?

he doesn't HATE you.
He doesn't even DISLIKE YOU..
but his job is one. build it with the least amount of parts to stock and part #'s
make it fast to install on the line..
and make it so the dealerships can make money from repairs..
because today unlike yesterday.. car maintenance is very small compared to 10-15 years ago..
he doesn't hate you. if he did. all those ware/maintenance parts would still somehow still be in service on your new p.o.s.