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Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

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  • #76
    Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

    Originally posted by dieselgeek

    It's only your opinion that "Drive By Wire is the reason Toyota is having massive recalls" If that were true, then "Any Car with Drive By Wire will have Massive Recalls" - and this is simply not true. Sorry.

    I don't follow your logic here. You seem to be assuming that all DBW systems are designed like the Toyota system. I am not saying that.

    My logic is this:

    The toyota DBW pedal assembly contains a type of part that is not used in any non-DBW car. This type of part is tricky to design, and toyota or their supplier got the design wrong, causing the system to fail.

    Since this type of part is only used on DBW cars, and it failed on these toyotas, then this failure would not have occured if Toyota had not used DBW.

    Meanwhile, the problem is either bad engineering, or bad manufacture, of a part that's nearly identical to the same part in a cable throttle system.
    no! The friction part is only used on DBW cars. There is nothing like it in non-DBW cars.

    You CANNOT say that "All DBW throttles incorporate a friction device" either because, nobody here has proven that as fact either. The pedal in the DBW throttle in my truck is a simple spring with a potentiometer, there is no dampener or friction device that I can find. It's a simple pivot with a bushing attached to a TPS. Thus, this isn't true for "All DBW systems"
    That is correct. Toyota may not have needed to add the friction part to their DBW systems, but they did, and it's causing them grief. Grief they would not have had if they did not use DBW in the cars. (or if they did not use this particular design of throttle pedal). There were two ways to prevent it, one was to be even more careful with the design, another was to eliminate the (what I feel is) unnecessary DBW system completely. My point is that DBW requires way more care in design, and there are many more opportunities to screw it up, and the throttle is a part of a car that requires that it be done RIGHT. Risk management....think about it. Why use a system that has many more possible failure modes when you don't really have to?

    If you want to PRESUME the statement "Drive by wire caused Toyota's problems" then fine, that's your opinion. But it is nowhere near close to fact because it includes broad assumptions. Again, sorry if that upsets you but - this is crystal clear.
    I'm not presuming anything.

    My fabulous web page

    "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

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    • #77
      Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

      Originally posted by squirrel
      There were two ways to prevent it, one was to be even more careful with the design, another was to eliminate the (what I feel is) unnecessary DBW system completely.
      Eliminating the DBW does NOT preclude Toyota or any other manufacturer from having recalls. Already been proven. The replacement cable throttle system you propose could have easily been "cheapened" in design or manufacture, and caused recalls. Recalls for Toyota's throttle systems ARE NOT guaranteed to go away if you eliminate DBW. Nobody here is citing "failure analysis" details either, just speculation that "more parts means more failures" and that is also incorrect.


      My point is that DBW requires way more care in design, and there are many more opportunities to screw it up, and the throttle is a part of a car that requires that it be done RIGHT.
      maybe? anyone have any hard data to back that up? I bet the OEMs do and it's probably why everyone uses DBW now. Because the"risks" associated may not be any greater than with a standard cable. If you knew for sure, then I'm guessing you'd be quoting me numbers before this post got to 19 pages long.


      Risk management....think about it. Why use a system that has many more possible failure modes when you don't really have to?
      Risk management is far more complicated than that. You'd use a system that has many more possible failure modes if the SYSTEM ITSELF results in less overall failures. Newsflash, my computer controlled 1996 Camry will indeed go many many more miles than your 1950's era, all mechanical car, without a failure that renders it inoperable. It doesn't take a rocketscientist to clearly see that the more complex cars are also far far more reliable than the less complex, older ones everyone seems to miss so badly. Perhaps the real problem is, he complicated cars are harder to FIX than the simple ones, and THAT is why everyone makes all these broad generalizations?


      Who in here has access to data / studies about failures in DBW versus cable throttle? so far we got page after page of people "assuming" that the cable assembly is always more reliable than the DBW. Somebody needs to step is up, quit blathering, and start backing up those claims with data because it's getting a little old being the lone defender of basic logic in here :-\

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      • #78
        Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

        face it D/g
        the cable system WORKS
        this drive by wire failed..
        thats the only thing clear..
        and now no one will trust it..
        sorry lord toyota.. they have failed you ;D

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        • #79
          Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

          I haven't had to call a tow truck to get a vehicle home until a few weeks ago. Guess what...it was the 87 suburban, with it's computer controlled TBI 350, which suffered an igntion system failure, I think the pickup went bad. I've always been able to drive the non-computer ones home.

          Anyways, I'm kind of confused why you're putting so many words in my mouth that I didn't say.

          Look at the data--how many recalls for mechanical throttle systems? how many for DBW?


          My fabulous web page

          "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

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          • #80
            Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

            Originally posted by squirrel
            I haven't had to call a tow truck to get a vehicle home until a few weeks ago. Guess what...it was the 87 suburban, with it's computer controlled TBI 350, which suffered an igntion system failure, I think the pickup went bad. I've always been able to drive the non-computer ones home.

            Anyways, I'm kind of confused why you're putting so many words in my mouth that I didn't say.

            Look at the data--how many recalls for mechanical throttle systems? how many for DBW?


            I'm quoting you directly, I am not putting words in your mouth. You ARE making assumptions, I can't help it.

            The data you cite (re: recalls) says nothing to support your claim that cable throttles fail less than DBW throttles. Also, your example about your Suburban is one single case, in a sea of CLEARLY opposing fact. By that example are you trying to say that I am wrong when I state that "computer controlled vehicles have less failures causing inoperability than previous generations of all mechanical vehicles" - are you REALLY saying this? or just trying to skew the argument at hand? Please clarify.

            I tried finding data on when "recalls" started. I couldn't find the history or when the first one actually was forced on an auto manufacturer. But interestingly enough, I found that Ford had to recall 10 million vehicles for faulty cruise control systems recently, there was almost no news about it.

            Anyways back to the subject,which seems to be sliding around a little. Someone should show me a study that shows Drive By Wire is guaranteed to be less reliable than a cable throttle. Then we'll share that together with the OEMs and collect big bucks as they switch back to cable throttles!!
            www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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            • #81
              Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

              PS - I am downloading the 99 meg file that you linked, in order to see when the earliest recorded recalls ever happened. Did you actually look at this huge file?

              IF recalls were happening in the 1950s, then your argument might have some wings and I'll admit it when I see it.
              www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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              • #82
                Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

                Anybody else hearing merry-go-round music playing in the background? :D

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                • #83
                  Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

                  Originally posted by dieselgeek
                  PS - I am downloading the 99 meg file that you linked, in order to see when the earliest recorded recalls ever happened. Did you actually look at this huge file?

                  IF recalls were happening in the 1950s, then your argument might have some wings and I'll admit it when I see it.
                  GM recalled nearly 7 million vehicles in the early 1970's. The recall was due to faulty motor mounts on 69-69 models.
                  That which you manifest is before you.

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                  • #84
                    Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

                    Originally posted by dieselgeek
                    I'm quoting you directly, I am not putting words in your mouth. You ARE making assumptions, I can't help it.

                    The data you cite (re: recalls) says nothing to support your claim that cable throttles fail less than DBW throttles. Also, your example about your Suburban is one single case, in a sea of CLEARLY opposing fact. By that example are you trying to say that I am wrong when I state that "computer controlled vehicles have less failures causing inoperability than previous generations of all mechanical vehicles" - are you REALLY saying this? or just trying to skew the argument at hand? Please clarify.
                    No, I'm not saying that, you're just trying to skew the argument by saying I said it. You can read what I actually said above, and compare it to what you claim that I said. Not the same thing at all.

                    Anyways back to the subject,which seems to be sliding around a little. Someone should show me a study that shows Drive By Wire is guaranteed to be less reliable than a cable throttle. Then we'll share that together with the OEMs and collect big bucks as they switch back to cable throttles!!
                    Who said that DBW is guaranteed to be less reliable? I certainly did not say that.

                    I said that it adds more complexity to the vehicle, and requires much more care in design. I also said that it's unnecessary.

                    The database is interesting, there seems to be one recall (1991 Ford) in the 90s concerning accelerator pedal issues that would lead to problems like Toyota is having. There are a lot more in the 2000s.

                    Cruise controls have always had problems, now almost every car has the mechanical parts for it...it's not an option.


                    Regarding the reliability of old stuff vs new stuff--really, I've had more reliability with computer controlled stuff, but when it screws up, it's nasty. There's an ABS caused dent in my garage door to prove it.
                    My fabulous web page

                    "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

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                    • #85
                      Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

                      Originally posted by squirrel

                      The database is interesting, there seems to be one recall (1991 Ford) in the 90s concerning accelerator pedal issues that would lead to problems like Toyota is having. There are a lot more in the 2000s.
                      Are we looking at the same data? I can hardly keep track of all the records that contain the word "throttle" in them. I am summing using pivot tables in Excel, but I can already see a lot more problems related to cable throttles, the earliest one I see goes back to the 1950s. This is INDEED an awesome datasource!!
                      www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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                      • #86
                        Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

                        Just an update, the database Jim cites contains at least 4800 SEPARATE recalls with the words "throttle" - each of those recalls is a different situation, NOT a differen vehicle. I.e., some of these recalls affected 100,000+ cars EACH.

                        Just browsing the data, it looks like the vast vast majority of them are relative to CABLE THROTTLES.

                        I am waiting on a pivot table summary of all of them, but I can see pretty clearly that there are WAY WAY WAY more historical recalls regarding throttle cable problems than DBW. I am making sure I am not collecting data that I don't need, but after scrolling through 20+ pages, every single one of them details how a throttle cable assembly can be screwed up by things like "broken motor mounts" or "broken body mounts" or "friction with body causing frayed cable"

                        I'm hoping to compile some reasonable data but anyone with Excel should load up the "RCL" file linked above, search for records with the word "throttle" and see what I am talking about.

                        JUst based on what I have browsed, it's MORE than clear that safety is likely a prime motivation to implement Drive-by-wire. Wow!
                        www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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                        • #87
                          Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

                          OKay, I have a handle on the data linked above by Jim. It's NOT pretty for the anti-DBW guys at all!

                          Let's pick on Ford for a minute. I am selecting the following categories:

                          VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL: CABLES
                          VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL: LINKAGES
                          VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL: ACCELERATOR PEDAL
                          VEHICLE SPEED CONTROL: SPRINGS


                          The earliest NHTSA forced recall for Ford on the above categories was for a 1969 model year, and the latest was for a 2004 Mustang. From what I can tell, these are ONLY "cable throttle vehicles"

                          Total vehicles that were sold that were affected by the recall? 11,459,665



                          What about General Motors in the same categories, all model years? 11,570,482

                          Their earliest forced recall (model year of vehicle) was the 1968 Open Kadett.

                          Let me know if anyone is interested in a sampling of the typical problems associated with CABLE DRIVE throttles, some might find this boring but others would find it VERY interesting. The data overwhelmingly suggests that cable throttles have been a MAJOR problem forcing recalls since the beginning of NHTSA recall history.







                          www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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                          • #88
                            Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

                            Gee it sure did get quiet in here. Nobody's interested in hearing about all the recalls of cable throttles???
                            www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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                            • #89
                              Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

                              Been outside working on Goliath. (mechanical throttle linkage :D )

                              Fill us in!
                              That which you manifest is before you.

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                              • #90
                                Re: Toyota Crisis Worsens, Cars Pulled From Rental Fleets, A Million More Cars Recalled

                                Originally posted by Brian Lohnes
                                Been outside working on Goliath. (mechanical throttle linkage :D )

                                Fill us in!
                                Based on NHTSA data, you might want to advance those plans for a Motec and drive-by-wire!!!

                                Cliff's notes: Squirrel referenced the NHTSA data so I went ahead and downloaded the "Recall" database. I loaded it up in Excel and started running pivot tables on the data.

                                Looks like they started enforcing recalls in the late 1960s. Since that time, GM and Ford combined have had over 20 million vehicles with recalls related to Cable Throttles. The quantity of individual entires in there is amazing: many many issues over return springs, throttle blade over-centers, frayed cables. Lots and lots of issues around broken body mounts, and motor mounts, that can cause throttle control problems. Toyota's data as of late, is in there too - and it's almost impossible to find amongst the other manufacturers (both foreign and domestic).

                                It was an eye opener for me, I preferred cable throttles as I used to believe they were "probably more reliable" but after seeing the NHTSA data, I'm now thinking that the number one reason the OEMs have moved to DBW is product safety and liability.

                                It made for an interesting last hour of my day at work (when everyone else has already left the office at 3pm, lol).

                                www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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