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Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

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  • #76
    Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

    Originally posted by IRONHEAD
    Originally posted by Not A Duster
    Originally posted by Super Sport
    I apologize if this has been brought up, but..

    I think that one of the largest obstacles to any substantive changes to the form of the cars is that to the current generation of "regular" or casual fans, the implication of the changes would be lost. Also, when compared to the personalities of the drivers, the drama, and some of the other factors that NASCAR has willingly allowed to be played up for ratings and money, most people could care less about technical factors involved in the cars. I don't subscribe to this personally, but I think it still applies. And it's the regular/casual folks that pay the freight. Buy the T-shirts, jackets, collectible cars, etc.

    It's like the whole "Chicks dig the long ball" thing in Baseball. Hardcore fans love a good pitching duel like nothing else, but it's the 1-0 games that the casual fans bitch about the most. And they pump the money into the sport.
    At which point, it's no longer sport, , it's entertainment.
    hay brainyac
    sports ARE entertainment..
    why else would american's watch tv for hours every year.. on motorsport/ski'n/baseball/foolball/basketball/etc/etc/etc
    cause it's ENTERTAINMENT.. otherwise they'd be out doing it.. out play'n baseball or whatever with their buddies..
    wow your a smartie
    that post pretty much confirms for me that you never did drive the race cars that you claim you did. You only understand racing from the viewer's side of the TV screen. Which is fine, that's where most NASCAR fans get their knowledge of motorsports. Just don't try to claim you have experience if you think motorsports is strictly "entertainment" - I don't break my balls to bring in a Drag Week class win every year for my, or your, "entertainment" - I do it because I am pushing my own perceived personal limitations. I cold care less if there's a crowd of spectators or TV cameras, most of that just gets in the way of achieving my own goals. Keep watching NASCAR, it's a good distraction to keep guys like you, out of my way
    www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

      NO d/G .ALL THAT POST CONFIRMS is I understand.. racing .. IS entertainment to the fans..
      the racers don't like the changes.. but. IF you understand without the fans.. your not gonna be racing..
      as most people can not foot the bill on there own..
      it's a fine line.. but if you want to play, you got to go with the way the sport is run..
      even when NASCAR was great in the eyes of everybody.. without money(backers) you were not gonna be a factor..
      you thing Petty would have won. 1/100th of what he did without STP backing..
      sorry, D/G some understand without the fans.. all racing would be dead.. from local bull rings to local dragstrips..
      as the land would be condo's now..

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

        Originally posted by Brian Lohnes
        Originally posted by SpiderGearsMan
        in phantasy cup - bill elliott is 31 years old and winning all the races
        like that ever happened
        You're on a hot streak....that's f'n hilarious. :D
        Funny joke that's not remotely based in fantasy league reality.

        Elliott's stats:

        Year: 2010; Rank: 28; Points: 82; Avg. Start: 40.0; Avg. Finish: 27.0; Winnings: $270,070
        Originally posted by std
        OK back to real questions....So Speedy, who do you think won the race and what rules would you have to assure that would happen?

        I hope that doesn't sound like a smartallecy question. I don't like the G/W/C ending. I think when the laps are up the race is over.
        McMurray won the race under the rules in effect at the time.

        As to G/W/C: Arguably it reduces the "moral hazard" inherent in finsihing races under caution when there's no racing back to the caution. What I mean by "moral hazard" is the risk of having a teammate or affiliate orchestrate a caution to "lock in" a victory. While the G/W/C rules still could be manipulated (on the white flag lap or to obtain a race "reset" when a leader is clearly ahead), it makes it somewhat harder to run a "crash-to-win strategy. Even when a crash occurred on the white flag lap of the 2010 Daytona 500, NASCAR didn't immediately throw the yellow.

        The convention of ending at the "advertsised distance" no matter what (except for rain after the halfway mark) was merely a choice of NASCAR. It's not inherently better than G/W/C. Plenty of short tracks have historically prevented races from ending under caution. A lot of "bullrings" don't even COUNT caution laps! Most timed events in other forms of racing do not end exactly on time, but rather end when the lap underway at the expiration of time is over.

        The fans seem to love the drama of G/W/C, even if the mechanics, drivers and Cup traditionalists do not. As with double-file restarts, G/W/C is probably here to stay.

        Originally posted by IRONHEAD
        NO d/G .ALL THAT POST CONFIRMS is I understand.. racing .. IS entertainment to the fans..
        the racers don't like the changes.. but. IF you understand without the fans.. your not gonna be racing..
        as most people can not foot the bill on there own..
        it's a fine line.. but if you want to play, you got to go with the way the sport is run..
        even when NASCAR was great in the eyes of everybody.. without money(backers) you were not gonna be a factor..
        you thing Petty would have won. 1/100th of what he did without STP backing..
        sorry, D/G some understand without the fans.. all racing would be dead.. from local bull rings to local dragstrips..
        as the land would be condo's now..
        The problem is that D/G and FeHead are both partly right. D/G is right insofar as long as there are at least two cars left on the planet, somebody is going to race them. Much of sportsman-level racing (e.g. Drag Week, local bullrings) is motivated by factors other than sane business judgment. In other words, its often a poor business proposition to spend $25,000/year running a Top Gas bracket car or $100,000+ to run a local or regional sprint car. The old joke that "the way to make a small fortune in racing is to start out with a large one" is funny because it's so true.

        On the other hand Iron is right that without the business-side of racing keeping the tracks and promotors in operation, guys like D/G wouldn't have near as many opportunities and safe places to run . . . or even trick parts to run with. Gate receipts from fans and television revenues are crucial to big-time auto racing in its present form. Gate receipts even play a factor in some sportsman-level racing. Without paying race fans seeking entertainment from racing, NASCAR likely wouldn't have progressed much farther than moonshiners running each other in somebody's field.

        Nor would sponsors be very interested in advertising on race cars or at race tracks if there's little chance of consumer exposure to the messages. Every sportsman track I've seen has some level of advertising. Thus, in most levels of racing (and certainly once it becomes a professional sport), the racers' business model is predicated on money generated by the "entertainment" value of racing.

        Investment in parts development is also clearly affected by "what the pros use." Although there would still be an aftermarket if all "entertainment racing" stopped, it would certainly be smaller and less well-promoted. Much of the technology sportsmen enjoy trickled down from the top levels. This development slows if the "racing-as-entertainment" dollars dry up.

        While we Bangshifters love Bonneville, Hot Rod Drag Week, Maxton, weekly bracket racing, local autocrosses, NASA and plenty of other events that don't draw many spectators, all of these "grassroots" events combined do not have the media presence or the revenue of NASCAR. Thus, like it or not, the "big dog" in American motorsports is both a sport and popular entertainment.

        As for whether Richard Petty "would have won. 1/100th of what he did without STP backing," it's clearly an exaggeration. Petty obtained 119 of his 200 wins before STP was his sponsor. On the other hand, without Chrysler and later Ford's factory backing in the 1960s, hardly anyone would have ever heard of Richard Petty outside the Carolinas. Both Chrysler and Ford were interested in NASCAR because fans (potential customers) were entertained by it.

        Sports and entertainment are not mutually exclusive, so long as the results of the contests aren't predetermined (i.e. some forms of professional wrestling).


        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

          Originally posted by Speedzzter.blogspot
          On the other hand Iron is right that without the business-side of racing keeping the tracks and promotors in operation, guys like D/G wouldn't have near as many opportunities and safe places to run . . .
          Without today's NASCAR there'd be no drag week? no LSR? I kinda doubt it. Gate dollars are a small fraction of the money that NASCAR brings in (when compared to sponsorship/advertising income), I don't see much of it trickling into LSR or drag week. Maybe the regional SCCA type racing perhaps?



          or even trick parts to run with.
          To some degree, but you're talking to an avid DIYer. I'm not scared of losing NASCAR to keep the *HOBBY* that I love, going strong. Now, for someone who wants to be a big famous racer on TV (there's that Fan thing again), because that's what they watch at home on TV, then I group those people in the same category as those who want to become movie or TV stars. I wish them the best of luck, knowing that even if they are great actors, they have a 1 in 100,000 chance of becoming that big movie star.
          www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

            Originally posted by dieselgeek
            Originally posted by Speedzzter.blogspot
            On the other hand Iron is right that without the business-side of racing keeping the tracks and promotors in operation, guys like D/G wouldn't have near as many opportunities and safe places to run . . .
            Without today's NASCAR there'd be no drag week? no LSR? I kinda doubt it. Gate dollars are a small fraction of the money that NASCAR brings in (when compared to sponsorship/advertising income), I don't see much of it trickling into LSR or drag week. Maybe the regional SCCA type racing perhaps?



            or even trick parts to run with.
            To some degree, but you're talking to an avid DIYer. I'm not scared of losing NASCAR to keep the *HOBBY* that I love, going strong. Now, for someone who wants to be a big famous racer on TV (there's that Fan thing again), because that's what they watch at home on TV, then I group those people in the same category as those who want to become movie or TV stars. I wish them the best of luck, knowing that even if they are great actors, they have a 1 in 100,000 chance of becoming that big movie star.
            the point D/g was.. if there wasn't pro motorsports less people would be into cars/racing in general..
            face it. there be no muscle cars if it wasn't for dragracing..
            the days of.. pour'n your own head out of a cast in your garage are long gone..
            without,, the big guns.. the parts industry would be very very small..
            no better head gaskets for turbos, no better parts at all..
            the salt flats live on. because of guys like the summer brothers. ect.. that built stuff.. but also had backing..
            only the diehards would even know about if. if not in hot rod/etc .
            same with the silverstate race and ones like it..
            your a diy guy.. most are.. but some parts your not gonna just make in a basic garage..
            if bigger injectors where not aval. you're not gonna build them in your garage, forming the parts and injection molds. are not diy..
            without. the big biz side of hot rodding.. it would've died years ago..
            without the taxes that the government makes on the biz side of it..
            they'd never think twice about force'n the hot roders/racers back into outlaws..
            and making autos an item to get to point a to b..
            think about that.. without the sema and all the biz behind that.. this hobby would be outlawed.. and you'd not beable to so any mod's to any car/truck that is run on puplic roads..

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

              Originally posted by IRONHEAD
              only the diehards would even know about if. if not in hot rod/etc .
              same with the silverstate race and ones like it..
              your a diy guy.. most are.. but some parts your not gonna just make in a basic garage..
              if bigger injectors where not aval. you're not gonna build them in your garage, forming the parts and injection molds. are not diy..
              Not many people know of the Silver State race anyways, even in Nevada. And where there's a will there's a way. If bigger injectors are not available, the parts to drive more smaller ones are. If you have to run 16, 24, what ever number of injectors, the parts are available to build something that can run that many to get the fuel flow you need. Carbs at one time couldn't flow enough either, they started multiplying in the intake until, surprise!, bigger carbs were made. Never under estimate the DIY's.
              Escaped on a technicality.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

                Originally posted by min301
                Originally posted by IRONHEAD
                Originally posted by Not A Duster
                Originally posted by Super Sport
                I apologize if this has been brought up, but..

                I think that one of the largest obstacles to any substantive changes to the form of the cars is that to the current generation of "regular" or casual fans, the implication of the changes would be lost. Also, when compared to the personalities of the drivers, the drama, and some of the other factors that NASCAR has willingly allowed to be played up for ratings and money, most people could care less about technical factors involved in the cars. I don't subscribe to this personally, but I think it still applies. And it's the regular/casual folks that pay the freight. Buy the T-shirts, jackets, collectible cars, etc.

                It's like the whole "Chicks dig the long ball" thing in Baseball. Hardcore fans love a good pitching duel like nothing else, but it's the 1-0 games that the casual fans bitch about the most. And they pump the money into the sport.
                At which point, it's no longer sport, , it's entertainment.
                hay brainyac
                sports ARE entertainment..
                why else would american's watch tv for hours every year.. on motorsport/ski'n/baseball/foolball/basketball/etc/etc/etc
                cause it's ENTERTAINMENT.. otherwise they'd be out doing it.. out play'n baseball or whatever with their buddies..
                wow your a smartie

                Don't push it with the attitude, buddy....
                the mighty min has spoken..
                was it directed to you.. NO..
                so.. why don't your reply when I'm posting a question to you.. and keep your two bits here

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

                  Originally posted by TheSilverBuick
                  Originally posted by IRONHEAD
                  only the diehards would even know about if. if not in hot rod/etc .
                  same with the silverstate race and ones like it..
                  your a diy guy.. most are.. but some parts your not gonna just make in a basic garage..
                  if bigger injectors where not aval. you're not gonna build them in your garage, forming the parts and injection molds. are not diy..
                  Not many people know of the Silver State race anyways, even in Nevada. And where there's a will there's a way. If bigger injectors are not available, the parts to drive more smaller ones are. If you have to run 16, 24, what ever number of injectors, the parts are available to build something that can run that many to get the fuel flow you need. Carbs at one time couldn't flow enough either, they started multiplying in the intake until, surprise!, bigger carbs were made. Never under estimate the DIY's.
                  where there is a will there will always be a way..
                  but... isn't great that oyu don't have to, because the parts are aval.?
                  not many people are gonna load up a cad program and cnc a head out of alum billet or make cast molds..
                  same with intakes./pistons and on and on..
                  just look at fords.. untill the foxbody and 302's.. the aftermarket didn't do much.and every rod you saw (well not all 99.8%) had a small block chevy..
                  this alone proves the point... without the parts. alot of people are not gonna.. run it.. and if there where non.. the pool of people building their own would be small.. and the hobby would be also

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

                    Originally posted by dieselgeek
                    Without today's NASCAR there'd be no drag week? no LSR? I kinda doubt it. Gate dollars are a small fraction of the money that NASCAR brings in (when compared to sponsorship/advertising income), I don't see much of it trickling into LSR or drag week. Maybe the regional SCCA type racing perhaps?
                    I didn't say that grassroots racing would be over without pro racing. Nor did I say that there would be no development of aftermarket parts. LIke SilverBuick says, "where there's a will, there's a way." Megasquirt is a prime example of that.

                    But without fan-supported racing, many of the aftermarket companies would be a lot smaller and there would be less R&D. Technology would begin to stagnate even more than it already has. OEMs would cut dollars invested in motorsports R&D and parts operations. Technology transfers from pro to sportsman racing would end. Sportsman racing didn't "pay the R&D" costs to develop and perfect such things as CGI blocks, CNC heads, high r.p.m. roller valvetrains, advanced dry sump lubrication systems, coatings, clutchless transmissions, advanced low-tension ring packages, "bulletproof" drivelines, sticky tires, fire suits, aerodynamic aids and many other motorsports advances. These technologies were initially developed and "paid for" in professional racing and have "trickled down" to sportsman-level competition. While DIY people can be remarkably innovative, most of the "low hanging" hot rodding fruit is gone and the true bombshell developments tend to flow now from scrappy organizations that serve professional, fan-supported racing.

                    You discount "gate" money, but sponsorship and television revenue are also driven more by fan popularity than any other factor. That's common sense. An ad in Hot Rod costs more than an ad in on somebody's vanity blog. Why? EXPOSURE! Exposure is directly linked with the entertainment factor. Folks wouldn't subscribe or spend $5.00 a month on Hot Rod if they were not entertained. It is the same with racing.

                    To some degree, but you're talking to an avid DIYer. I'm not scared of losing NASCAR to keep the *HOBBY* that I love, going strong. Now, for someone who wants to be a big famous racer on TV (there's that Fan thing again), because that's what they watch at home on TV, then I group those people in the same category as those who want to become movie or TV stars. I wish them the best of luck, knowing that even if they are great actors, they have a 1 in 100,000 chance of becoming that big movie star.
                    But some of those fans will be inspired to build a short track car or a NASCAR-style engine for bracket racing (even if its the old production-based style of NASCAR-inspired mill). Others will "benchmark" professional racing power levels with their "power adder" builds for street and strip. (I don't know how many times I've heard about how world-conquering that two-valve pushrod carbureted engines are because of their high profile use in NASCAR.) Lots of kids will get "hooked" on motorsports because of their first exposure through television and/or attending big-time races. And even if these kids have a "1 in 100,000 chance" of turning pro, they may still get involved at lower levels of the sport. Such involvement supports all sorts of racing-related businesses.

                    Most certainly, NASCAR doesn't appeal to every Bangshifter. Most certainly, NASCAR's rules have made it much less relevant to the OEMS. Most certainly there are other professional motorsports that do as much or more to develop racing parts and technologies. But to suggest that fan-supported racing simply doesn't have a positive effect on sportsman racing is unreasonably myopic.

                    Sorry, D/G, Ironhead has a good point.

                    Brian said it well in the SEMA "take a friend to a race in August" post:

                    We're obviously big proponents of racing in all of its forms. There are few places we'd rather be than at a race track, even better if we're driving, but even if we are holding down the bleachers we love it all the same. The fact remains that the racing industry is a large part of the world of aftermarket performance parts. From exhaust systems for dirt bikes all the way up to pistons and rods for top fuelers, many people in this country make their way by providing parts to racers. Supporting the tracks and events they compete at, help to keep the industry viable and as they say, a rising tide floats all ships.
                    http://www.bangshift.com/blog/Start-...in-August.html

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

                      Originally posted by IRONHEAD


                      hay brainyac
                      sports ARE entertainment..
                      why else would american's watch tv for hours every year.. on motorsport/ski'n/baseball/foolball/basketball/etc/etc/etc
                      cause it's ENTERTAINMENT.. otherwise they'd be out doing it.. out play'n baseball or whatever with their buddies..
                      wow your a smartie
                      No... really - you think? Well jeez I didn't know any of that all those years of working in the entertainment industry must have taught me nothing. Thanks for enlightening me.

                      Who the #### do you think you are?

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

                        Originally posted by Not A Duster
                        Originally posted by IRONHEAD


                        hay brainyac
                        sports ARE entertainment..
                        why else would american's watch tv for hours every year.. on motorsport/ski'n/baseball/foolball/basketball/etc/etc/etc
                        cause it's ENTERTAINMENT.. otherwise they'd be out doing it.. out play'n baseball or whatever with their buddies..
                        wow your a smartie
                        No... really - you think? Well jeez I didn't know any of that all those years of working in the entertainment industry must have taught me nothing. Thanks for enlightening me.

                        Who the #### do you think you are?
                        next time read the post it was a reply to speedy..
                        so what does. you working the entertainment industry have to so with speedy..
                        nothing.....
                        WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE..
                        unless your speedy.. your post is pointless

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

                          Bullshit. As usual.

                          And also as usual - you try to lie your way out of it.

                          Go back and look at the post - you quoted Supersport and me - Speedy was nowhere near the post.

                          Liar.

                          And y`know - next time you decide to use big words in an effort to insult someone, try spelling them properly. The word you tried to use is spelled: b-r-a-i-n-i-a-c.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

                            Originally posted by Not A Duster
                            Bullshit. As usual.

                            And also as usual - you try to lie your way out of it.

                            Go back and look at the post - you quoted Supersport and me - Speedy was nowhere near the post.

                            Liar.

                            And y`know - next time you decide to use big words in an effort to insult someone, try spelling them properly. The word you tried to use is spelled: b-r-a-i-n-i-a-c.
                            LMAO! OWNED!
                            Escaped on a technicality.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

                              Originally posted by Not A Duster
                              Bullshit. As usual.

                              And also as usual - you try to lie your way out of it.

                              Go back and look at the post - you quoted Supersport and me - Speedy was nowhere near the post.

                              Liar.

                              And y`know - next time you decide to use big words in an effort to insult someone, try spelling them properly. The word you tried to use is spelled: b-r-a-i-n-i-a-c.
                              sorry I thought I replied to speedy..
                              again sorry..
                              it was directed towards speedy.. not you...
                              AND I KNOW WHO I AM..
                              WHO ARE YOU.. are you are you are you..
                              the who rocks

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Speedy Says: Here are the Rules NASCAR Should Adopt

                                My point was on the snide remarks, and again, name calling.

                                Comment

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