Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

[38P]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

I have to agree. It sound as if SFI didn't make their money on selling him tags on items already certified, he had the tags made. Nowhere does it say they weren't certified, it just says they were not tags made by SFI.

But if Impact signed a contract with SFI that provides SFI a monopoly on supplying the certification tags, then Impact ordinarily would have to live up to the deal it made. Impact's initial "let's fight" response does not bode well for a quick resolution.

From the racers' standpoint, if Impact really did counterfeit the tags but the equipment is otherwise safe, then the breach of contract is hardly "material" and the sanctioning bodies ought to let the racers use the equipment during the Impact/SFI donnybrook.

One way to attempt this is through a preliminary or temporary injunction, either against decertification or against the sanctioning bodies from recognizing any decertification. Both would be hard to accomplish, though. Impact would have to show, among other things, that they'd probably win at trial -- difficult to do if they're guilty. And an injunction against the sanctioning bodies would be even harder to accomplish because courts have traditionally taken a "hands off" approach to the rules of private racing organizations.

Thus, if Impact cares about its previous customers, it should negotiate a deal with SFI that "grandfathers in" the certified equipment bearing counterfeit tags, and pays SFI for the lost revenue. Otherwise, this mess will quickly spiral out-of-control.

[Loren]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

Thus, if Impact cares about its previous customers, it should negotiate a deal with SFI that "grandfathers in" the certified equipment bearing counterfeit tags, and pays SFI for the lost revenue.

Also, if SFI cares.

Their de-certification announcement sounds pouty and punitive. For instance, who cares where the fake labels were made?

Presumably at some type audit they found out how much product Impact shipped, compared that to what they were paid, and came up with a difference. Now they want to make a big point and punish everybody including the customers.

It should have been easy for SFI to keep up with whether their licensees were staying on the level or not. Perhaps product owners could come after SFI for the cost of their equipment as well, being that if SFI labels were on some of the product legitimately (for example, one helmet out of three or whatever) and thus it's implied that they approve of the design in general. One for the lawyers I guess.

I am NOT defending Simpson, just making a point about SFI over-reacting to a situation that also involves a lapse in their own due diligence, and making the end user (aka guy-who-bought-the-stuff) the loser.

BTW I wish the alcohol racer had said specifically what the problem was with his firesuit. He stayed pretty vaugue.

[Brian Lohnes]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

Loren, my understanding is that the suit failed to provide the level of fire protection as promised (SFI 15 = 15 seconds 20= 20 seconds etc). That's 2nd and a half hand info so take it for what it is worth.

Being that they already recalled the firesuits for not passing muster, being that they were busted using HANS device mounting equipment that was not correct and stuff was recalled for that, what option does SFI have? Can they just hope that the stuff will work or do they have to follow these steps because when someone gets burned up in a funny car fire or in their sportsman race car it calls everything into question.

I'm not on board with the "so he didn't buy the stickers from them, so what?" argument. If they are willing to try and backdoor the most basic tennant of their products accrediation what other stuff are they willing to do?

Brian

[IRONHEAD]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

hay brian, what is the fee per sfi tag.
sounds like bill simson needs to fire a few calling the shots...
but, it also seems the SFI only cares about the fee...
if simson takes all his products and they pass, sfi is gonna not like the lawsuit..

I'll bet money.. sfi is in bed with another vendor...
has anyone tested the "other fire suits" out there...

[dieselgeek]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

Sorry, but SFI's word choice in their announcement is poor.

Brian, if the stuff was found to not meet the SFI requirements, don't you think they'd have said so? then worked with the vendor to resolve it? Plus, none of us know the terms of the agreements between them.

The implication from SFI is that there's a "safety problem" but since they lack the balls to say it, I'm thinking there'sa reason for it.

Right now, it just looks like a "oh yeah? let's see whose is bigger" contest. If you know something we don't, then it'd be a good idea for SFI to do a lot better job of communicating. This whole thing reeks of "power play" games.

[Brian Lohnes]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

Scott it may be that, but in my opinion the past failures of the company to produce products that live up to their initial certification left nothing but the nuclear option for SFI.

Impact has an interesting Catch-22 situation on their hands.

To deminish fears about the performance of their products they could publically test them (YouTube, live broadcast, etc), but in order to do that they would first need to admit that the product was one wearing a forged or counterfeit label.

I really don't think SFI has much of an option to treat this situation as they are. If they did nothing it would be open season for printing fake labels, knocking stuff off, etc.

If this were a company with a sparkling record, I'd be right with you, but fact is, Impact has been caught doing sub-standard stuff in the recent past.

Brian

[Matt Cramer]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

I really don't think SFI has much of an option to treat this situation as they are. If they did nothing it would be open season for printing fake labels, knocking stuff off, etc.

If this were a company with a sparkling record, I'd be right with you, but fact is, Impact has been caught doing sub-standard stuff in the recent past.

Brian

Exactly - if you're in the business of certifying stuff, you really don't want anyone creating fake versions of your certificates, period. Even if the Impact Racing parts met their standards, they'd have no way of telling if he'd made any side deals to sell the labels on their own... or worse, if his factory in Asia was selling the labels to any interested party on their own.

[38P]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

Loren, my understanding is that the suit failed to provide the level of fire protection as promised (SFI 15 = 15 seconds 20= 20 seconds etc). That's 2nd and a half hand info so take it for what it is worth.

That would be inconsistent with SFI's delay in decertification. If safety was the issue, warnings and imediate decertification would be the reasonable course of action.

Being that they already recalled the firesuits for not passing muster, being that they were busted using HANS device mounting equipment that was not correct and stuff was recalled for that, what option does SFI have? Can they just hope that the stuff will work or do they have to follow these steps because when someone gets burned up in a funny car fire or in their sportsman race car it calls everything into question.

I'm not on board with the "so he didn't buy the stickers from them, so what?" argument. If they are willing to try and backdoor the most basic tennant of their products accrediation what other stuff are they willing to do?

That's certainly a logical way of looking at it. Of course, most safety certifications are generally based on destructive testing of exemplars with randomly-selected follow-ups Certification is extended to regular production on the basis that the production items are made of the same materials and construction, verified by nondestructive testing/inspections. (That being said, I have no insider info on SFI's procedures or the SFI/Impact contract).

The inference is that if Impact is willing to fraudulently induce customers into purchasing products with "fake" labels then they might also "cut corners" on materials and construction. In other words, if they're lying about the labels (which is arguably what a counterfeit label is) then they might be lying about more important elements of the product. Anybody who bought a fake Rolex on an NYC street corner probably learned this lesson about the abysmal ethics of "cheaters" the hard way.

BUT (you knew there'd be one), SFI has little choice but to declare the contract in breach once they became aware of the alleged fraud and misappropriation of its trade and/or serivce marks. Protection of its trademarks is paramount. It's not "pouty" or vindictive. And it's not indicative that the products are otherwise different from the certified exemplars actually tested.

That doesn't mean that SFI cannot work out a solution that benefits the scores of racers who purchased the improperly-labeled equipment if it is otherwise safe. If SFI knows the equipment is NOT safe, they'd better advise everyone to stop using it NOW (I suspect Impact probably indemnifies SFI for any claims that might be made, but the value and scope of that indemnity would be in question if Impact craters and SFI "sits on" actual knowledge of unsafe products).

[CDMBill]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

I am always amazed at the immediate assumption by many that something like this is automatically a conspiracy blah blah. SFI is a nonprofit originally set up by SEMA, not the NHRA, and it continues to function based on the testing fees and certification tag/sticker fees and sanctioning body fees.

I personally like this arrangement in terms of having an independent (as much as possible) organization that actually performs destructive testing so that I can make an intelligent purchasing decision. A quick review of SFI's announcements over the last year and half shows that Impact Racing has had numerous recalls, temporary decertifications etc. From this you can assume either that the company was operating on the edge of legality and beyond or that there is some kind of feud going on. In either case if an organization that has been as well respected and subscribed to by 1000's of manufacturers etc. for 40 years says that Impact is using bogus certification tags then they likely have researched it well because the cost of a false or unverified claim would be 10's of millions of dollars.

I never bought any of Impacts products because there has been background noise about their production methods and suppliers for years and there are plenty of other choices. It is a shame because Bill Simpson was a pioneer and leader in the field.

Like everybody, I'm annoyed that I have to re-web my belts every two years and any number of other things, but those are the rules we play by.

However, I would not risk my life nor do I want to be at risk because someone in the next lane has bogus safety equipment.

We all assume a lot of risks when we race, but not knowing weather a safety related product is good or bogus is not one I want to take on blindly.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

Speedzter nailed that, IMO


If SFI's top priority were to keep racers safe, then they'd have posted "Decertified because the products aren't safe"

I know a *little* about SFI and, this is why I question their motives. It doesn't take too much looking to find that they've partnered up with some companies, and left others outside the "circle of friends" much the same way the EPA won't let a guy like me build my own engine even if it blows clean emissions... but allows SOME companies "CARB exemption" with little more than taking the "right" attorney to the "right" place for lunch. Been there, got the t-shirt.

Bottom line, follow the money. If SFI has a problem with SAFETY then they need to say that. If they're butting heads with a vendor, then they need to handle it more appropriately than leaving it up to he reader's speculation.

I know there are people here who know a LOT more about what I am talking about, that aren't going to speak up... :

[Brian Lohnes]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

Loren, my understanding is that the suit failed to provide the level of fire protection as promised (SFI 15 = 15 seconds 20= 20 seconds etc). That's 2nd and a half hand info so take it for what it is worth.

That would be inconsistent with SFI's delay in decertification. If safety was the issue, warnings and imediate decertification would be the reasonable course of action.

Speedo -- I was talking about the Top Alcohol Funny Car racer who sent his firesuit to SFI, had it tested, and it failed last year.

[speed service]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

I have been feilding a ton of phone calls on all of this for the last 4 days. I know a bunch of you are in a bad way with this problem. I would like to extend a special offer to all of the BangShifter's. We are the midwest distributor for Simpson race products, And I would like to offer any "Brand X " customer 18% off on all Simpson products.
I am not trying to turn a fast buck on miss fortune, I would like to see everybody to still be able to run this spring and 18% is a low as I can go and keep the lights on.......If you have any questions please feel free to call.

Thanks and have a great day Chuy

317-858-7733

[CDMBill]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

I would note that there are 61 providers of driving suits listed on the SFI site and well over a hundred that provide things like suits as well as gloves, pants shoes etc. I would like to hear from those that are in the know as I am not. I can just read the onformation available to me hear and else where on the net.

It's not clear to me that SFI is somehow the same as the Federal EPA or the California Air Resources Board that answer to Congress and the left of Fidel Castro Cali legislature respectively.

The SFI statement also said that Impact should refund peoples money. Legit certifcation is a material issue when it comes to safety items and this is something I do know something about from the legal perspective.

[38P]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

Loren, my understanding is that the suit failed to provide the level of fire protection as promised (SFI 15 = 15 seconds 20= 20 seconds etc). That's 2nd and a half hand info so take it for what it is worth.

That would be inconsistent with SFI's delay in decertification. If safety was the issue, warnings and imediate decertification would be the reasonable course of action.

Speedo -- I was talking about the Top Alcohol Funny Car racer who sent his firesuit to SFI, had it tested, and it failed last year.

Uh oh! I see what you mean now. Sorry, Dude!

Actually, that portion of my post was drafted by a COUNTERFEIT "Speedo" . . . . :D

I would note that there are 61 providers of driving suits listed on the SFI site and well over a hundred that provide things like suits as well as gloves, pants shoes etc.

That's a fairly large group of "insiders."

[std]

Re: Epic Fail: All Impact Racing Safety Products to Be Decertified by SFI

First let me say I am not a fan of Impact stuff. I especially don't like their safety harnesses.

But....lets not forget that Mr Simpson basically had his company taken away from him after Earnhadrt Sr died. And all evidence says it wasn't his fault

Oh yea...What other non-profit sports organizations are out there.......NFL MLB NBA NHL.......non profit means that all the money goes in someone's pocket