Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

[min301]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

I think the same thing when I see a Prelude Si at the strip. :D

[Freiburger]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

one of the (if not the) fastest growing sectors of amateur motorsports in the US is probably autocross

If autocross IS "fastest growing," then it's a percentage. Start with a small number and it's not hard to post a big percentage of increase.

What's curious to me is how a 27-year-old guy with a '66 GTO cares so much about handling.

[Brian Lohnes]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

Ok,

First off Ze...it's Brian. I'm 28 and not qualified to be Mr. anyone. :D
Second, I'm glad to see the discussion continuing! We talk about the difference between the web and a paper magazine, well here it is.

The G8 is a killer piece in all it's forms. Even the V6 cars are respectable performers. I wouldn't wait too long to buy one though as the model is rumored to be dead after 2010. I'm moderately certain that Boxsters and BMW's will still be available for purchase.

There's nothing wrong with The Ring! I never said there was anything wrong with it and I, like most of the rest of you would love to hot lap the thing. That's not the point and I don't think I took any shots at the track itself.

This also has nothing to do with drag racing VS road racing or autocrossing or solo or anything of that sort.

The reason I say this is because one of the (if not the) fastest growing sectors of amateur motorsports in the US is probably autocross, which all about handling, agility, and transitions. There are likely many more people getting into motorsports via autocross than compared to drag racing these days, because all you need is a parking lot, some cones, and a stopwatch. Suddenly 1/4 mile times are starting to seem a whole lot less important in today's automotive climate, but for reasons completely separate than those suggested in this article.

Without any type of hard data to back that claim up, it's impossible to substantiate. I would counter argue that there are roughly 200 operational drag strips in this country with the majority having weekly programs that cater to street cars and all other setups. At my local strip, they draw 150-200 cars every wed and friday night every week from April to October. Larger strips will pull twice that many in multiple times a week. I've seen it from New Hampshire to St Louis to Memphis, etc.

In my days of SCCA competiton running both regional road races and autocrosses I never saw anything remotely close to that number of competitors, nor that frequency of competition. Cones, a parking lot, and a stopwatch....that pretty much sums up the drag strip in the parking lot of Qualcomm stadium out in California.

Using the premise of the article I think that domestic manufacturers bringing their cars TO autocrosses and solo events to mix it up with all comers would be infinetly more cool than the 'Ring stuff. Tune it there, set it up there, tweak it there, fine. But once it's ready bring it back here and SHOW ME.

It NEEDS to be tactile in my opinion. Watching a Z06 Vette paste a Porsche, seeing a Poncho lay waste to a Kraut burner, and an HHR SS smack the daylights out of a Civic SI would create so much more real world buzz than some viral you tube videos of professional drivers hauling ass through the "Green hell."

My frustration is not with road courses, Germans, drag strips, or any type of exclusionary racing snobbery. It's with manufacturers who once knew that the way you generated excitement in your products was to put it right into people's faces and show them how bad ass it was. Mopar used to have the performance clinics where Sox and Martin would show up to a dealer and educate kids on how to make their junk run right. I believe that Mark Donohue did the same thing while under Chevrolet's banner with Penske.

BTW there are some great tracks in NA... But lets be honest, you will not get the same buzz from claiming that testing was done at Watkins Glenn or Lime Rock or Laguna Seca... Or Road Atlanta for that matter...

Speaking to the point above, you're telling me that if Pontiac decided to invite all the media they could find and open the gates up to spectators so they could have a no holds barred match race with an M3 VS the G8 GXP it wouldn't generate buzz?! It would be frigging titanic and I'd be in the front row.

That's what I'm taking about.

Brian

[mustang13]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

With all said, who wouldn't pass up the chance to rip around the 'ring. My father-in-law did it in 60' while in the Air-Force in a tiny Opel with about 40 HP and still talks about how much fun it was. Three things I'd like to do before I take the big dirt nap, B-ville, The 'ring and the Autobahn, in that order!

[ZeGerman]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

This just in-Pontiac G8 GXP laps the 'ring in 8:30. That's 2 seconds faster than a Porsche Boxster S that weighs 800 pounds less and costs $15,000 more. And what are all the eurosnob writers saying about it? That it's more fun to drive than the current BMW's. That Pontiac is the new BMW-only better. This is a big deal. Lap times at the 'ring are proof.

BTW-it also runs 13.0's at 108mph.

Bitchin'! The G8 GXP is a seriously cool car, but I'd be hard pressed to buy one for ten-grand more than a Camaro SS.

After hating nearly all (except for a select few) GM products since I was a kid in the '80s, GM is finally becoming a very cool company again... God, I hope they survive!

[ZeGerman]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

Why would anyone find fault in testing a vehicle at its limits to improve the breed and advertise about it?

I don't think anyone disagrees with your last sentence above, but, I do think a lot of people misinterpreted the article.

The point of the article is not whether cars should be test at extreme levels. Rather, it is (as I understand) intended to illustrate that because many automakers are now testing their vehicles at road courses at the distant reaches of the globe (overseas), there is very little meaning in, lets say, the CTS-V's 'Ring time of 7:59.32 to the average American CTS-V driver. I fundamentally disagree with this suggestion, however.

Firstly, to quote the article in question: "It makes a whole bunch more sense than yammering on about how it runs nines, as in nine-minute laps around the 14.1-mile Nordschleife section of the N?rburgring course."

Really, how? 1/4 mile times and 'Ring lap times are just numbers that are unlikely to be a) duplicated due to differing vehicle setups and conditions, and b) attempted by the average driver in the first place. Both figures don't apply to 98% of the buying public.

Also, Mr. Lohnes: are you suggesting that because most people don't drive on the 'Ring, that road course times don't matter as much as 1/4 mile times? I think the 'Ring time is very relevant to today's cars, and is far more relevant than 1/4 mile times. The reason I say this is because one of the (if not the) fastest growing sectors of amateur motorsports in the US is probably autocross, which all about handling, agility, and transitions. There are likely many more people getting into motorsports via autocross than compared to drag racing these days, because all you need is a parking lot, some cones, and a stopwatch. Suddenly 1/4 mile times are starting to seem a whole lot less important in today's automotive climate, but for reasons completely separate than those suggested in this article.

[squirrel]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

...and last I checked, Opel and Holden were part of GM. Hmmmm...

[Mr4Speed]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

This just in-Pontiac G8 GXP laps the 'ring in 8:30. That's 2 seconds faster than a Porsche Boxster S that weighs 800 pounds less and costs $15,000 more. And what are all the eurosnob writers saying about it? That it's more fun to drive than the current BMW's. That Pontiac is the new BMW-only better. This is a big deal. Lap times at the 'ring are proof.

BTW-it also runs 13.0's at 108mph.

[bnjny]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

like that new caddy?

or that new vette?

or what? perhaps a benz or a bummer, or a japanese clone of a benz or bummer?

Like the Saturn Astra.. Oh, wait thats an Opel minus the power...

Just like a Caddy CTSV or a Pontiac G8... Oh, wait thats a Opel Omega/Holden...

The Vette should be the best and comes close. Especially, the newest version. Ride and handling is light years apart from the previous generation.

Halo cars will always be the best at a price.

What about 'everyday' cars?

Like the horrible Daewoo Chevy Aveo?

My point is that GM makes some great cars everywhere but here... The Ring makes these cars better... :-*


BTW there are some great tracks in NA... But lets be honest, you will not get the same buzz from claiming that testing was done at Watkins Glenn or Lime Rock or Laguna Seca... Or Road Atlanta for that matter...

Honestly this topic kinda sucks. ;D

Why would anyone find fault in testing a vehicle at its limits to improve the breed and advertise about it?

[min301]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

I have no problem with the ring, but I believe we can do just as well here,
given they put the effort into having somewhere domestic to test them.

If they can do it there, we can do it here.
That's all I'm saying.

[ZeGerman]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

Chances are, it would be better.
They want the parts that test the suspension to the edge of the envelope,
meaning they would add those to whatever test track they were to use.

Why send it there, if we can do it right here.
My $.02

Because I think there are many people, including automakers, who feel that the 'Ring is far more complex and dynamic than even the best US proving grounds. Sure, the 'Ring doesn't have crazy rumble strip durability sections of a proving ground, but it does have everything else the proving grounds don't have.

The Nurburgring should not be blamed for anything except lending itself to the creation of better handling cars... The lack of individuals knowing the 1/4 mile trap speed of their cars has nothing to do with the 'Ring.

[Mr4Speed]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

Mr4speed -- An empassioned defense no doubt and I resepct what you have to say. You took me a little too literally with the "tried and failed" line. I realize that the cars generate faster lap times, but our companies are crumbling before our eyes. Audi, Porsche, BMW, VW, etc are all running around the ring AND turning a profit.

We've done a bang up job building less expensive, better performing cars then the Europeans and yet still, the domestic manufacturers cannot sell them in volume.

Here's a question. If the domestic manufacturers had been doing this type of testing at the 'ring for the last 20 years would they still be in the shape they are in now?

Brian

The cars would not be as good as they are now if they had not held themselves to the highest possible standard. If they had been doing this 20 years ago they would be in much better shape today. They are doing it because they raised their sights far above what they were then. Twenty years ago they weren't even trying to be the best in the world when Toyota(Lexus), Honda(Acura), and Nissan(Infinity) were. When the original LS400 came out it put the accepted world standard in luxury cars to shame-because that was their objective. Toyota as a company benefitted from that achievement and shed their image as a company that only made cheap small economy cars. GM testing at the 'ring is a product of that same achievement mindset, and that mindset is the important thing. Twenty years ago they didn't have the self esteem to believe that they could compete with Mercedes. They now see themselves as players at the highest levels. They now see that they have to be-that good enough just won't do. It should also be noted that 20 years ago they were still trying to dig themselves out of the mess that Roger Smith had left the company in and were at that time focused on improving quality and reliability, and developing new, modern engines. They did-and they don't get enough credit for it. They are still saddled with that image of poor quality from that time. Like Toyota did then, GM has to make that big leap to dominating the competition at the highest levels-excellence on the world stage-to turn their reputation around. The German manufacturers have never had to dig themselves out of a hole with a bad reputation. Whether deserved or not their excellence has been accepted buy the buying public forever.

These achievements do carry some weight. I have to stress again that it's not just that they have some fast 'ring times, but how much better the cars became in the pursuit of those times. We are just now seeing the fruits of all that work. The cars that have really given them something to brag about are all '08 and '09 models-it's all happened just this year. Right when things were getting good the ladder got kicked out from under them. A good friend of mine who likes cars, but isn't really a car guy, was of the same opinion as most everyone else that the big three should be building better cars to deserve any help from the taxpayers. I started firing off links to him for all the road tests and reviews for the new Corvette, CTS-V, Cobalt SS, and Malibu. His response was-"I was blown away-I had no idea they were building cars that good." When you can show a laymen that a Caddy is faster than BMW's best that carries some serious weight. When you can show them that testers with an anti-american bias like the Malibu better than the Camry and Accord, that's a big deal. Ring times are something that are easy to grasp for people that don't understand complicated car stuff like we do. The whole world competes on our turf so for us to just be the best here simply isn't good enough anymore-we have to be the best here AND the best on their turf too.

Don't forget that the Malibu plant was running 24/7 and still behind demand before the credit seized up and the media and congress started telling everyone that American cars were all junk. Just when things were getting really good.

[min301]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

If the US comes up with its own 'Ring, then fine, test them solely on US soil. That has yet to happen. And as good as the "Lutz'Ring" is, simulations and proving grounds are never as good as the genuine piece.


Chances are, it would be better.
They want the parts that test the suspension to the edge of the envelope,
meaning they would add those to whatever test track they were to use.

Why send it there, if we can do it right here.
My $.02

[ZeGerman]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

I'm glad everyone has remained civil throughout this thread so far. It demonstrates the high caliber of people in here!

Freiburger: while I agree that it may be unfortunate to have lost a bit of cultural motoring history (widespread knowledge of 0-60 & 1/4 mile times), I don't think assigning causality or guilt to the Nurburgring is the strongest argument to support that idea. There are other, more relevant, things to blame. Is the Nurburgring preventing people from drag racing their cars at home and continuing that same tradition of 1/4 mile times? Modern cars are wildly computerized, and their engines are buried under acres of plastic, wiring, and hoses. That doesn't exactly lend itself to the same kind of drag strip test & tune culture that was so popular in the muscle car days. Basically, all I'm saying is that I think there are more relevant and nuanced social reasons why some of our motoring heritage has been lost, and it probably isn't because cars are developed thousands of miles away from where they will eventually be sold.

And while it's true that US automakers are broke and only getting more so, the argument that they are wasting money by shipping their cars/engineers to Germany for development is an argument that doesn't really jive with my gearhead brain. I'd rather they spend all their money on vehicle testing in crazy corners of the world than just about anything else. If the US comes up with its own 'Ring, then fine, test them solely on US soil. That has yet to happen. And as good as the "Lutz'Ring" is, simulations and proving grounds are never as good as the genuine piece.

[Brian Lohnes]

Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

Stone....sure you're a lawyer? You sound more like a negotiator!

Well done.

Brian