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Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

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  • #16
    Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

    My only answer to the question of why they spend all the money on numbers that only impress a certain few has to do with where the cars will get the most press and who is reading those rags (Car and Driver, Road and Track). Hot Rod, Car Craft and PHR will probably give cars like the HHR SS at most three paragraphs, where as Car and Driver will have a three page article on it. Maybe I'm wrong, but the geographics for those mags doesn't include, or want to include us drag racers.

    Back in the day, the manufacturers may have gotten more press on new cars in HR, CC and such. They tested them, modified them, and in a sense help sell them. Somehow, I don't see Kinnan getting a CTS-V do beat on for a series of articles.
    BS'er formally known as Rebeldryver

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    • #17
      Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

      Brian-I too am going to respectfully disagree, and do my best to make the case for the relevance of the Nurburgring. Testing there, and providing lap times from there is, I think, the MOST relevant thing they can do, and have ever done. Outside of drag racing circles the Nurgurgring is accepted as the ultimate test of a real road car-it is the world standard. It is unlike any other road course in the world-it has low speed sections and high speed sections. It has radical elevation changes that load and unload the suspension. Some sections are quite rough-just like the real world, and unlike modern road courses. It does not favor horsepower over handling, or handling over horsepower-it demands a balance of both. The tracks you mentioned- Watkins Glen, Mid-Ohio, Road Atlanta, Miller, Laguna Seca, Sears point, Summit Point are all great places to develop RACE cars but they are all far too smooth (and Miller is too flat)to present enough challenge to the car, and the engineers, to work out a package that will shine in real world, imperfect, public road conditions. The constant transitions in the Nurburgring force the engineers to also focus on the details that make the car feel right. The feedback through the steering, linear response through the brake pedal-the things that make the car comfortable and confidence inspiring to the driver-something that BMW and Mercedes mastered long ago, and that American cars have always been criticized as lacking. If a car has a ton of power but lacks grip, or won't transition well, or can't handle bumps, or lacks adequate brakes, or is too skittish to be pushed hard all the way around-it won't cut a good number at the 'ring. After a car has been fully sorted to work there, they feel right though the seat of your pants every time you're in the car. That's why the Nurburgring is the best track in the world to develop street cars-but there's more to it than that.

      A lap time from the 'ring is a quantitative measure of a performance car, and is universally accepted as such. Before that became the norm there was no universal standard to compare cars by. New car buyers don't really get a chance to wring a car out and find it's limits on a test drive, much less do it long enough to really learn the car and get a feel for it-to find what it will and won't do and how it likes to be driven. All you really get from a test drive is ride quality and what the car feels like at 3/10. The buying public has had to rely on the opinions of the motoring press to find out what the cars are like in real spirited driving before they buy it, which may come from testers who may or may not have the skills to develop a valid opinion. A lap time from the 'ring throws all that out the window and changes the evaluation from subjective to objective-and it has no prejudices. It also brings all the cars to the same place so that the only variable is the weather. If one car is tested at Laguna Seca, and another at Road Atlanta, and another at Brands Hatch, you don't have comparable numbers-you don't have valid data to judge one against the other. With all cars running the 'ring you do. Testing at the ring forces the cars to truly work well and gives you a means to prove it to the world.

      Most people never take their cars to a drag strip. Fewer still will ever take them to an open track day or autocross. They will buy the cars because they believe that they are capable of doing well in their particular field of interest. The majority will buy them because they can be proud of them regardless of whether they cut the numbers themselves or not. I don't think any of these cars have compromised quarter mile performance for 'ring times in their development. If anything they have improved it. Adding a great 'ring time to the list of stats in no way diminshes the glory of their ET's. In the old days ET was all that mattered-and it was awesome. The bar is higher today. More is expected of the cars. Quarter mile performance is a objective standard that is reasonably repeatable in numerous locations. 'Ring times are reasonably repeatable, and are an objective standard because of a single location.

      You say the American car companies have tried and failed to beat them at their own game, and YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG. At the Nurburgring-

      The Corvette ZR1 is the fastest sports car

      The Cadillac CTS-V is the fastest sedan

      The Cobalt SS is the fastest sport compact-and the fastest front wheel drive car

      That is beating them at their own game. These cars are all better than the best that the rest of the world has to offer by their standards. In addition to beating the worlds best in cold hard numbers, those very cars have been universally praised for excellence in normal everyday driving and for their superior aesthetics and quality-which is exactly what our cars have always been criticized for. It is more relevant right now than ever. Our auto industry is under attack from the media and our own government as behind, inferior to, and uncompetitive with the rest of the world. As a product of the testing we have done at the Nurburgring we have solid proof that we can best the competition, and by their own standards. It's relevant because the trickle down is huge-every base model Cobalt, Malibu, Saturn, ect. drives better as a result. If they had never tested there the cars wouldn't be this good-and we really need them to be this good right now.


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      • #18
        Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

        Most of the answers here show why the new Camaro and Challenger are so expensive, the same people for the most part who "say" they would buy a stripper Camaro or Challenger or Mustang etc etc or would......if only it had air, heated seats, ac, blah blah blah....the spirit of the article is that the simplicity is gone, the days of a no option, as in zero,3:27 geared T5 notchback stang that runs a number that makes all the options seem unnecessary are long gone it would seem......now we go to Germany to run OUR cars and compare those numbers? Seems kinda sad doesn't it?

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        • #19
          Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

          Mr4speed -- An empassioned defense no doubt and I resepct what you have to say. You took me a little too literally with the "tried and failed" line. I realize that the cars generate faster lap times, but our companies are crumbling before our eyes. Audi, Porsche, BMW, VW, etc are all running around the ring AND turning a profit.

          We've done a bang up job building less expensive, better performing cars then the Europeans and yet still, the domestic manufacturers cannot sell them in volume.

          Here's a question. If the domestic manufacturers had been doing this type of testing at the 'ring for the last 20 years would they still be in the shape they are in now?

          Brian
          That which you manifest is before you.

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          • #20
            Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

            They've been making what money they have on trucks and suvs, so you have a pretty good point Brian....I didn't notice any trucks or suvs in this discussion.

            My fabulous web page

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            • #21
              Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks


              [/quote]

              Dave made me read it. Before then I kinda dismissed because of the title... no offense.

              [quote]
              ...

              X2 After reading the article I felt pretty much the same as Lohnes (I think). Lets see how the European cars run against the ZR1 or Vipers on some of our fields.

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              • #22
                Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

                Another "I respectfully disagree" post. The American manufacturers do have their own test tracks, and do most of their dialing in there, but everybody bringing their cars to one single track does give a handy number to compare to answer the question, "How does it perform on a road course?" While you can standardize a dragstrip, it's harder to do the same - or even come up with correction factors - for road courses.

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                • #23
                  Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

                  Noones yet mentioned the baby ring in Detroit???

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                  • #24
                    Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

                    how about that top gear episode where the limeys drive some American iron thru the southwest mountains? They were impressed with some of the cars. But I guess that doesn't count in the real world.

                    My fabulous web page

                    "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

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                    • #25
                      Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

                      The ring makes a lot of sense... Last I checked, I drive my car around corners and more then a 1/4 mile at a time...

                      It about endurance and the robustness of the car in question... A trip around the ring says more about a car then a quick 1/4 mile burst...

                      Most family sedans can run a 14-15 sec 1/4... Some sport coups and performace sedans can run low 14-mid 13 sec times... The 1/4 mile does not hold much of any aura with the buying public... It is the whole package... Not just straight line numbers that drive the majority of today's enthusiast.

                      Today, people are interested in driving their cars... They want to know that it will stop and handle well in emergency situations...

                      It is about time the Big 3 step up and offer a car that is built well, drives well, is comfortable with good power and good gas mileage...



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                      • #26
                        Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

                        like that new caddy?

                        or that new vette?

                        or what? perhaps a benz or a bummer, or a japanese clone of a benz or bummer?
                        My fabulous web page

                        "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

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                        • #27
                          Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

                          Brian I think you bring up a very good point - that we (Americans) need a world-class road course... I understand Mr4speed's comment that there is no other baseline where the world comes and tests their cars against each other.
                          So, in a sense, I'm combining both of your points - we need a true 14.1 mile racetrack that really does test cars AND is accessible to the largest car-consuming society in the world.
                          Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                          • #28
                            Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

                            Stone....sure you're a lawyer? You sound more like a negotiator!

                            Well done.

                            Brian
                            That which you manifest is before you.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

                              I'm glad everyone has remained civil throughout this thread so far. It demonstrates the high caliber of people in here!

                              Freiburger: while I agree that it may be unfortunate to have lost a bit of cultural motoring history (widespread knowledge of 0-60 & 1/4 mile times), I don't think assigning causality or guilt to the Nurburgring is the strongest argument to support that idea. There are other, more relevant, things to blame. Is the Nurburgring preventing people from drag racing their cars at home and continuing that same tradition of 1/4 mile times? Modern cars are wildly computerized, and their engines are buried under acres of plastic, wiring, and hoses. That doesn't exactly lend itself to the same kind of drag strip test & tune culture that was so popular in the muscle car days. Basically, all I'm saying is that I think there are more relevant and nuanced social reasons why some of our motoring heritage has been lost, and it probably isn't because cars are developed thousands of miles away from where they will eventually be sold.

                              And while it's true that US automakers are broke and only getting more so, the argument that they are wasting money by shipping their cars/engineers to Germany for development is an argument that doesn't really jive with my gearhead brain. I'd rather they spend all their money on vehicle testing in crazy corners of the world than just about anything else. If the US comes up with its own 'Ring, then fine, test them solely on US soil. That has yet to happen. And as good as the "Lutz'Ring" is, simulations and proving grounds are never as good as the genuine piece.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Barnstormin': Why the Nurburgring Kinda Sucks

                                If the US comes up with its own 'Ring, then fine, test them solely on US soil. That has yet to happen. And as good as the "Lutz'Ring" is, simulations and proving grounds are never as good as the genuine piece.


                                Chances are, it would be better.
                                They want the parts that test the suspension to the edge of the envelope,
                                meaning they would add those to whatever test track they were to use.

                                Why send it there, if we can do it right here.
                                My $.02

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