Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

[horsewidower]

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

That's also true. But how is it that Toyota and Honda had cars ready to go when the most recent gas crisis hit and GM only had big gas guzzlers?

The car market had already pretty much been ceded to imports. They were making big bucks on the SUV truck market, they didn't need cars. It was pretty short sighted, but they were giving the consumer what they wanted in the most profitable platform. Far more margin on a truck or SUV then on a car.

Bob

[Scott Liggett]

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

That's also true. But how is it that Toyota and Honda had cars ready to go when the most recent gas crisis hit and GM only had big gas guzzlers?

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

The big 3 were definitely arrogant back in the 60's and 70's. The cars of the muscle car era weren't that great either. The quality control sucked backed then. Go to a show and asked a guy who ordered one how many problems the car had when he picked it up at the dealer. I read one article where the 65 GTO convertible this guy ordered had 47 things wrong with it. That more than qualifies it as a lemon by today's standards. The shit they tried to shove on us in the 70's was proof of their arrogance. What a bunch of heaps. When the Japanese started importing cars in real numbers, Americans got to see what a reliable, well built car was supposed to be, not what the Big 3 tried to tell us one was. They paid for it. Not only were they not prepared for the emissions regs, but they actually believed no Americans would like Japanese cars. Maybe, they should've sent some guys to Japan to see what was going on. They did, eventually, in the 80's. Too late, they had to play catch up. Don't get me started on the Big 3 not seeing the gas crisis of 73 and 75 coming. They knew it, and ignored it, just like they did three years ago. What's pathetic about this is that they've haven't learned a damn thing in the last thirty years of mistakes.

sorry.. rev
we the buying puplic ignored the gas crunch #1 and #2
and we failed to remember those days untill a few years ago..
the car makers only , gave us what we wanted..
big cars/big suvs and trucks..
as proof, look at how much bigger the import car companies cars/truck have got'n..
if there wasn't a market for it.. they'd not try to get in on the action..
sorry,, IT is WE that ignored the gas issues. of the 70's
and we are the ones that didn't learn from it..

[Scott Liggett]

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

The big 3 were definitely arrogant back in the 60's and 70's. The cars of the muscle car era weren't that great either. The quality control sucked backed then. Go to a show and asked a guy who ordered one how many problems the car had when he picked it up at the dealer. I read one article where the 65 GTO convertible this guy ordered had 47 things wrong with it. That more than qualifies it as a lemon by today's standards. The shit they tried to shove on us in the 70's was proof of their arrogance. What a bunch of heaps. When the Japanese started importing cars in real numbers, Americans got to see what a reliable, well built car was supposed to be, not what the Big 3 tried to tell us one was. They paid for it. Not only were they not prepared for the emissions regs, but they actually believed no Americans would like Japanese cars. Maybe, they should've sent some guys to Japan to see what was going on. They did, eventually, in the 80's. Too late, they had to play catch up. Don't get me started on the Big 3 not seeing the gas crisis of 73 and 75 coming. They knew it, and ignored it, just like they did three years ago. What's pathetic about this is that they've haven't learned a damn thing in the last thirty years of mistakes.

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

I read this and figured Lohnes was gonna get lynched.

IMO, the Edsel and Airflow are bad examples. It was the lack of action during the musclecar era to prep for the gas crunch and emissions laws that started the downslide, and it was crap late-'70s cars that polished them off.

again, funny how everyone remembers.. the big three's faults.. years ago
but forgets the junk the imports sold here for years..
ya, the honda civic ran for ever..
who cared it rotted to the ground.. before it was 7 years old.
same with u r a bus /toyo/nissan/ etc
they all rotted away... even the ones from the 90's
if they are still on the road they are blow'n blue smoke...
funny so much american cars from the 70's -80's where junk..
but where are all the same year imports?
look to your rebar in your house ;D

[Freiburger]

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

I read this and figured Lohnes was gonna get lynched.

IMO, the Edsel and Airflow are bad examples. It was the lack of action during the musclecar era to prep for the gas crunch and emissions laws that started the downslide, and it was crap late-'70s cars that polished them off.

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

toyota outsources to right to work USA
sweeyheart tax deals with the locals increases profits

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

Ignorance is bliss...

yes it is

[oldsman496]

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

lottsa viewpoints here. good sh!t. Cause' its a good article. Thought provokin' Brian. Our culture seems to be tied to doing things as fast and cheap as possible. Our financial centers are geared toward CEO's makin' short range decisions to keep stockholders happy - this qtr.... They just don't seem to have that long term mindset. If I ever get to be boss for a day, I'm takin' the day off.

[min301]

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

Ignorance is bliss...

[Pumpkin]

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

Um, don't think so bowtie.

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

Second thing - people keep talking about how much lower labor costs are in Japan. This used to be true but has not been in a couple of decades. I suggest folks Google for this if you doubt me. In fact, the Japanese are now "outsourcing" to places like Korea and China. Sound familiar? Their domestic labor has gotten so expensive that they can't, in many cases. afford it and stay competitive on the world stage. And all this in factories that are generally much more modern than ours. Not sticking up for the Japanese, just saying that the difference in labor costs isn't that major of a deal anymore.

Dan

well outsourcing to china, is outsourcing to themselves..
JAPAN the republic of CHINA

[DanStokes]

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

A couple of perspectives -
My dad was a labor negotiator for Kaiser. When the Unions were getting too strong (and I'm not terribly opposed to unions, but they can get "TOO powerful), Henry J simply pulled up stakes and moved the whole company to Argentina where they continued to make cars for many years - profitably. Granted, Henry J owned a fleet of ships, but...... It was kind of a "No Confidence" vote for the American economy, but I can see his point. BTW - we almost moved there at the time (1955 or so) but Dad was afraid of Juan Perone.

Second thing - people keep talking about how much lower labor costs are in Japan. This used to be true but has not been in a couple of decades. I suggest folks Google for this if you doubt me. In fact, the Japanese are now "outsourcing" to places like Korea and China. Sound familiar? Their domestic labor has gotten so expensive that they can't, in many cases. afford it and stay competitive on the world stage. And all this in factories that are generally much more modern than ours. Not sticking up for the Japanese, just saying that the difference in labor costs isn't that major of a deal anymore.

Dan

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

as well as this piece is written,,
It leaves out alot of pieces..

the big three,, had shareholders and bean counters.. that tie'd alot of hands..
so, it's truely amazing .
these men we hold in high regard, got anything noteworthly through..

and when your labor cost per car.. is tiny. compaired to most of the world..
you can ,afford to spend more .on the "products" materials..

the laws in this country, that others didn't have to deal with, never helped,either...

funny, how. americans forget the junk that was imported,p.o.s. rot boxes..from only 10 years ago.
but will look back on the big three, for their junk, of the same time period!!!!!!!!!
can't really blame.. the big three, for at the time.. we, the cash paying customer..
gladly bought those cars..
we, didn't force their hands to build better cars.. by, not buying the cars..
we still did .
when the imports was eating away at the market ..
imports.. got they're to dig their teeth in.. because of a gas crunch...
but, most will say. that the big three ,should've learned from that..
and they did..,, WE DIDN"T
WE the money paying customer..
as we went right back to buy'n the big cars/truck/etc
and leaving the small cars on the dealerships floor..
can't fault a company for, paying attention to what people are buying .. and improving ,that, that sells..
sadly, it's come to this...
but , remember, the media, has a big hand in this..
recalls on import company cars. are a back page little blip.. if at all..
one of the big three have anytype of recall or issue.. they are on it.. and it's a headline for a week..
if not more...
the american buyers, remembering of what cars . where pos.. is reinforced... by the media.. that doesn't report.. inbiasly
on recalls and issues. the same way.
one has to look no farther, than some of the car media. long term reports..
a pontiac has a chrome exhaust tip fall off. and you think the world was coming to an end..
but the toyoda(or insert any other make, other than the big3) and it was from "spirted driving"

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Barnstormin': Were the Big Three Really That Good?

in 02 GM had so much cash , they were thinking of buying HONDA

yeah right :D

in 2002 Q3 including their "write downs" they were only losing money at a rate of $1.42 per share. per quarter. Sure they were thinking about buying Honda, just like I think about buying a house overlooking the ocean in SoCal

so ... I am a liar
like they didn't buy most of subaru , fiat , more of suzuki , isuzu and daewoo
I could have been wrong on the exact year , but GM was a major cash cow for decades
powering the stockmarket and training future toyota employees