Could They Sell This Today?

[squirrel]

like the LTZ option on the Chevy trucks--you had to buy the luxury package to get the 6.2 engine. If you wanted the 6.0 you had to move up to a 3/4 ton.

Of course, back in 1973 when you could buy a strippo half ton with the 454, the engine wasn't anything to write home about, in stock smog truck form.

[RockJustRock]

The 1968 Road Runner sold over 200% of what the Plymouth market planners predicted and was the number three selling intermediate high-performance car -- bested only by Pontiac GTO and Chevrolet SS-396 Chevelle. It prompted a wave of "budget" and "junior" supercars over the next four model years.

Of course, RJR is correct that dealers tended to load them up with profitable options as they became available, diluting the concept.

Whether or not all of that made it a "big . . . thing back then" is a matter of opinion. Certainly there wasn't a muscle marketer in Detroit who wouldn't have wanted to replicate the initial numbers Plymouth earned with it. That the option package hung on in some form until Iacocca killed all the fun during Chrysler's first bailout indicates how strongly some at Plymouth believed in the mystique. By the time it ended, it was a tape-stripe paper tiger that wasn't "that big of a thing." . . a mousetrap that no longer caught any mice . . .

So it was a big thing because it outsold the Skylark GS and Fairlane GT? In hindsight the '68 Hemi Roadrunner SHOULD have been a big thing but the price was a little steep. In '69 Dodge also softened the impact by offering the Dart Swinger 340 for a LOT less cheddar than the Roadrunner. The 383 Magnum was kind of a marketing department problem child. Didn't really win any races or anything else special. People went for the 396 or 400s because of the mystique of the higher horsepower versions. Then came 1970 and the BIG guns, 454 and 455s and of course the detuned bread and butter versions of them.

Car and Driver LOVED the MoPars though. Too bad GM never greenlighted the L78 Chevelle 300 sedan talked about in this article. If *I* was a Sixties musclecar collector guy I would be building a phantom tribute to that possibility right now. Call it a COPO Roadrunner Killer. Super Coyote!

http://www.caranddriver.com/content/...n+%2769%29.pdf

Damn them! They took it down. Oh well it was a great article, take my word on it....

[Markmx6]

I might have a different take on "Hot Rods" than everyone else. I look back (to a time I wasn't alive during) and am given the impression that the original hot rods were cars that were available and making them faster or improving them in what ever way you could afford. Some of my favorite stuff to look at are the vehicles that weren't popular or fast and made to be more than what they were. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it was just for show, how many times did you see when someone took a car and added longer rear shackles to an otherwise stock car? It seemed to be a time where the aftermarket wasn't as available. How many of you guys had a base model car and went to the junkyard (or whatever source) and found a bigger and better motor or transmission, rear axle, etc?

I remember my father telling me about his friend in High School who worked his ass off for the whole summer and saved his money and bought a fastback mustang. I don't know about you, but it doesn't matter how much I would have worked for one summer and been able to buy a brand new performance car. So my thought being that in it's most basic sense "Hot Rod" is taking something from one level and improving it still, and this is still happening, it just happens with cars most of us look at as being crap. Don't get me wrong I enjoy my 99 Honda Accord for the fact that it is reliable and gets good fuel mileage, but it's still a crap car. (which is why I only paid $800 for it) Here is the kicker though, in some people's minds it is exactly what they are looking for. It is a completely un-molested accord that can have a different engine, transmission, suspension and what ever else you want to do with it. So in a different group of people's minds, it could be their Hot Rod.

That and a surprisingly large group of kids these days have no interest in driving. Even when I was young your driver's license was a huge ticket to freedom and improvement to your social life. Now so much of kids lives take place online, and when they need to go somewhere there are parents who drive them, mass transit or uber... So the benefits to a manufacturer is diminishing. Scion is a perfect example, they were supposed to be marketed to teenagers with all kinds of factory modifications that could be applied. In my experience though is that most scions are driven as company vehicles or moms looking for a small vehicle that still holds kids and crap...

[Gateclyve Photographic]

I might have a different take on "Hot Rods" than everyone else. I look back (to a time I wasn't alive during) and am given the impression that the original hot rods were cars that were available and making them faster or improving them in what ever way you could afford. .

Good summary . . . a lot to unpack in it. Key differences between early hot rodding and hot rodding after Detroit discovered it and really became aggressive at pre-packaging it, are:

1. Post-sale modification was necessary to obtain high-performance in mass market vehicles.
2.Modification was increasingly necessary for older vehicles to keep up with newer vehicles.
3. None of the Detroit companies understood or paid much attention to early hot rodding.
4. A much greater percentage of young people had hands-on experience with "gateway" mechanical skills (working on farms, in full-service gas stations, military and defense plant service, etc.).
5. All cars required a lot more mechanical work to keep on the road, which provided opportunities for hot rodding in lieu of stock repairs
6. The obsolete, cheap designs upon which most hot rods were based left a lot of room for simple improvements.
7. The previously alluded to associations of youth automobility with autonomy and privacy stoked interest in many forms of motoring.
8. The laws affecting hot rodding were mostly just nuisance-type regulations (e.g. fender laws, muffler laws, headlight height rules . . . .)
9. Most places didn't punish shade tree mechanic projects


Virtually all of that has changed over the past sixty years.

If one wants to go fast now, there's little necessity to "roll your own" if one can write a big enough check or swing a fat enough monthly payment. Almost no kids need vehicles for privacy or autonomy. There's not very much "low hanging fruit" left in modifying anymore. Modern vehicles are appliances that don't need much regular attention. And few modern motorists have any skills anymore to meaningfully venture below the plastic vanity covers over modern computer-controlled engines, Even some cheap econoboxes are fifteen seconds quicker in 0-60 m.p.h. acceleration times than a standard post-war car, and some out-handle full-race cars of the 1960s. Detroit has huge booths at SEMA and spends millions courting specialty vehicle and "halo" sales. It's a profit center now. Laws control almost every aspect of new car design. Government snoopers regularly inspect late-models in more than half of the states. Zoning regulations , homeowners associations, landlords and code enforcement squelch shade-tree projects in many urban areas. Prices for everything are out-of-control but our economic baselines (what we will accept as a "normal' standard of living) are also much higher. The cost of most forms of automobility have risen much quicker than the general rate of inflation.

There's also a social aspect that's a complex subject for another day.

[Eric]

One cannot discount the effect of Corporate Average Fuel Economy regulations here. Every hot V8 drives the average down . . . something as wild as a Hellcat even more so . . . So if they're statistically limited to a certain number of V8s in the mix, the natural tendency is to price them to gain as much profit as possible. OEMs are in the money business.

Does anyone really believe that a V8 anything now costs $10,000+ more to build than a four or six-cylinder version of the same car? Hint: the V8 mark-up is not nearly as high in trucks, where the CAFE standards are still much looser, and the costs are spread out over more units.

As to whether folks will live with "bare bones" outside of fleet sales, I'll defer to the collective judgment.

As an anecdote, I theoretically tried to option together a short-bed, single-cab V8 pickup with all the necessary performance equipment. a year or two ago -- just to see what it would cost In this particular brand, selecting a suitable limited-slip axle with a decent gear ratio triggered all sorts of mandatory "option packages" which ruined the pricing and only added luxury and weight. Most disappointing.

OEMs build what the dealers want and the government will allow. .

today.
sadly
a 4 banger with a hairdrier is faster than much of what this hobby lust after.
I love the sound of a big block, I love the bully in a china shop, reaction when you mash the go pedal. BUT.
I'd take a mid to late 70's mustang II or g.m. Monza and clones with todays turbo 4 and a stick any day of the week.
Small, handle great and high mpg and still fast as hell, if only todays engine tech showed up back then., before cars became eggs on wheels and filled with nanny controls and weight.
Think about it a mustang II cobra body with a focus rs 340hp turbo 4 and 320ft lb and a stick.

[DanStokes]

Some random thoughts (not in any order):

Not so sure the junkyard days are over. mix a lowered - say - S-10 chassis and any one of several 300+ HP V6s or turbo 4s that are now in the pipeline. I know you'll have to bring along the computer(s) and wiring but that's hot rodding.

Cover that chassis with any of several coupe bodies, maybe a Corolla, Focus, etc. As long as the wheel bases are close you can make it work and you CAN adjust the wheel base as needed.

Or how about a Sebring convert? Not much in stock form but it might be sorta interesting with 300HP.

This won't be as light or as cool as -say - a Kellison body from back in The Old Days but still pretty cool and interesting.

Guess what I'm saying is that with some thinking there are fun parts in any junk yard that can be turned into something fun and different. It never was easy and might be even more difficult given today's JY stock but still doable. I know one idiot that put a Mercedes Diesel into an S-10 - there are possibilities out there!

Dan

[Eric]

9. Most places didn't punish shade tree mechanic projects


.

Sadly that line is a huge problem. most places you can't have an "eye sore " project car in driveway or beside a home anymore. I haven't started on my project while I save for a car port , to put the vehicle behind a fence out of public view, If I start working on it, and someone calls I'll have 72 hours to have a running and moving vehicle. again. Something when you have a job, might be an issue in an engine swap. The general public don't care. and in this I'm offended by everything world, they'll call on a drop of a hat.
Yes, I get it, many that live in hickville don't have this issue, but it is a royal pain in the butt that do have to deal with it.

[Markmx6]

Some random thoughts (not in any order):

Not so sure the junkyard days are over. mix a lowered - say - S-10 chassis and any one of several 300+ HP V6s or turbo 4s that are now in the pipeline. I know you'll have to bring along the computer(s) and wiring but that's hot rodding.

Cover that chassis with any of several coupe bodies, maybe a Corolla, Focus, etc. As long as the wheel bases are close you can make it work and you CAN adjust the wheel base as needed.

Or how about a Sebring convert? Not much in stock form but it might be sorta interesting with 300HP.

This won't be as light or as cool as -say - a Kellison body from back in The Old Days but still pretty cool and interesting.

Guess what I'm saying is that with some thinking there are fun parts in any junk yard that can be turned into something fun and different. It never was easy and might be even more difficult given today's JY stock but still doable. I know one idiot that put a Mercedes Diesel into an S-10 - there are possibilities out there!

Dan

I agree with what you are saying, but I think it applies to people more like us, which seems to be a dying breed. I had dreams of putting a small block v8 into my s10 (first car) but I didn't have the resources or dedication. I thought it would be cool to take an geo storm and put a built up motor of some sort into it. There are still people doing it and the results are amazing, but it seems that it happens less and less.

[squirrel]

my first hot rodding adventure....stuffing a 396 into a 59 chevy truck....this was 1979....we had 4 acres, my dad wasn't into cars but didn't mind me messing with them (my gateway intro to mechanical stuff was keeping the family cars, and then the neighbors cars, running). The swap took about 20 hours of labor--Friday morning until Saturday night.

http://selectric.org/59truck/under59truckold.jpg

[Eric]

much of the problem with this hobby, is they are stuck in the past. back when v8 rear drive cars were the norm, and inlin or v6 cars could be made into v8 cars without much trouble. They laughed at the import craze, and stuck with the older cars, problem being they dried up and got costly. and parts are not at ever corner parts store anymore. even for the chevy small block, when you are building a carreer you can't have wheels you have to order parts for to get to work. and be waiting for 2-5 days to get back on the road.

[Gateclyve Photographic]

I've experienced nearly everything mentioned in this thread, from outdoor engine swaps, vintage muscle, FWD "hot hatches", four-cylinder turbos, V6 turbos, V8 turbos, and late-model computer-controlled V8s. I've been a broke student scavenging junkyards and working outside in the winter. I've made payments. And I've occasionally had a project budget and a great all-weather place to spread out and work. I've been a spectator, a dreamer, and a racer.

Maybe I'm stuck in the past, but I just don't get enough satisfaction or bang-for-the-buck from FWD and four-cylinder anything. Too hard to work on. Too much understeer. Too much cost and breakage for what you end up with. Not enough objective performance.

The best advise I can give a bucks-down putative "tuner" or hot rodder without a good place to wrench is:

1. BUY SOMETHING THAT: (A) RUNS; (B) IS AFFORDABLE, (C) IS SOMEWHAT EASY AND FUN TO THRASH ON and (D) HAS SUFFICIENT STYLE TO KEEP YOUR INTEREST

2. READ UP ON THE BASICS, UNDERSTAND THEM, AND THEN DEVELOP A STAGED PLAN OF GRADUAL, CONTINUOUS MODIFICATION that can be executed as time. money, skills and facilities allow.

3. Cultivate friendships and associations which you can rely upon to help you through the tough spots.

4. Participate in as many events (cruises, tours, shows, time trials, test-n-tunes, and races) as time, equipment and finances allow (event participation will undoubtedly change what you value and what you want).

5. Find some "happy" in the moment and be glad you're not sitting around without a motor vehicle in a corrugated tin shack in Rio . . . The vast majority of the world's population will never experience the joys, challenges, frustrations, and satisfactions of hot rodding. .

The dumb things to do are buying something that will never get running or finished (done that); settling for something that's slow, ordinary, and boring while waiting to build an "ultimate" dream car (wasted time with that one too); and sitting around doing nothing (guilty).

Start small and work up to your dreams. You may just find that what you think you want really isn't what you actually want. Simpler and slower project vehicles can also help you refine your wrenching, styling, constructing, and driving skills, along with saving you some coin as you progress.

BTW, the best revenge is being the belle of the ball with something that the deep-pockets super-rodders would totally ignore. I've seen a well-modified budget straight-six AMC snag more interest than a perfect $50,000 hypercar, so there's hope for the flat-wallet crowd.

[squirrel]

damn, that's some good writing, right there

[RockJustRock]

Historically any time Detroit builds a lot of fast cars the purpose and intent gets all perverted. People WANT a fast car, but DO NOT want to drive fast. So now it has gotten really twisted. They can't build a car that will run clean, not burn too much gas and will be able to get out of it's own way WITHOUT making it really really fast. How tiny of a four cylinder would it take to make a slow Camaro, Challenger or Mustang? And then, wouldn't it be SO slow it would be hazardous in traffic? And would it be any cheaper to build or sell than what we have now?

So, there's no real need for a new Roadrunner. A V6 sporty car would decimate an old Roadrunner on the race track. But still there is that element that will pay extra for a FASTER car than the next guy. Not that they actually want to drive that fast, they just want to know they COULD. That's where "455" Trans Ams with wheezy Oldsmobile engines came from.

[Eric]

I've experienced nearly everything mentioned in this thread, from outdoor engine swaps, vintage muscle, FWD "hot hatches", four-cylinder turbos, V6 turbos, V8 turbos, and late-model computer-controlled V8s. I've been a broke student scavenging junkyards and working outside in the winter. I've made payments. And I've occasionally had a project budget and a great all-weather place to spread out and work. I've been a spectator, a dreamer, and a racer.

Maybe I'm stuck in the past, but I just don't get enough satisfaction or bang-for-the-buck from FWD and four-cylinder anything. Too hard to work on. Too much understeer. Too much cost and breakage for what you end up with. Not enough objective performance.

The best advise I can give a bucks-down putative "tuner" or hot rodder without a good place to wrench is:

1. BUY SOMETHING THAT: (A) RUNS; (B) IS AFFORDABLE, (C) IS SOMEWHAT EASY AND FUN TO THRASH ON and (D) HAS SUFFICIENT STYLE TO KEEP YOUR INTEREST

2. READ UP ON THE BASICS, UNDERSTAND THEM, AND THEN DEVELOP A STAGED PLAN OF GRADUAL, CONTINUOUS MODIFICATION that can be executed as time. money, skills and facilities allow.

3. Cultivate friendships and associations which you can rely upon to help you through the tough spots.

4. Participate in as many events (cruises, tours, shows, time trials, test-n-tunes, and races) as time, equipment and finances allow (event participation will undoubtedly change what you value and what you want).

5. Find some "happy" in the moment and be glad you're not sitting around without a motor vehicle in a corrugated tin shack in Rio . . . The vast majority of the world's population will never experience the joys, challenges, frustrations, and satisfactions of hot rodding. .

The dumb things to do are buying something that will never get running or finished (done that); settling for something that's slow, ordinary, and boring while waiting to build an "ultimate" dream car (wasted time with that one too); and sitting around doing nothing (guilty).

Start small and work up to your dreams. You may just find that what you think you want really isn't what you actually want. Simpler and slower project vehicles can also help you refine your wrenching, styling, constructing, and driving skills, along with saving you some coin as you progress.

BTW, the best revenge is being the belle of the ball with something that the deep-pockets super-rodders would totally ignore. I've seen a well-modified budget straight-six AMC snag more interest than a perfect $50,000 hypercar, so there's hope for the flat-wallet crowd.

And that is why the hobby as the old guard sees it is contracting .
Why I build rear drive v8 cars as a teen/20/30/40/soon to 50's. they were everywhere and cheap, you could buy a 307 powered 1972 Chevelle for 100.00 my 1980 t/a was 300.00+ a head gasket engine upper set.
This has not been the case for the youth for a few decades. Sure you could get a totally beat rear drive v8 American car for a few grand that was a rolling p.o.s. That most parents were not going to say yes to. Sorry it is NOT the 70's/80's anymore. The cheap reliable parts are everywhere cars where and are front drive cars.
It tis comical, commenting on the front drive 4 bangers being hard to work on, clearly you have not touched a v8 anything that has been produced in the last 20 years..
In the 80's if you screwed up in that 1972 grandma special 307 chevelle you swapped a 350 into, you could go to the junkyard and get a nose, or another 350 if you blew up the one in it. I haven't seen a running 350 chevy in a yard in a decade other than late 90's trucks with 250+ miles on them and the engine IS why the truck is in the yard.
You are not going to be a kid and have an 80 f body and be doing donuts and smacked the curb and rolling into a yard needing an axle and rolling out with one. God help you if you smashed up the nose,
This is yet another reason why most kids even if they could get a 3000.00 somewhat ok old car, they pass. but if you need parts for a Honda or suburu /etc there are rows and rows of them.
Cash for clunkers took many of the cheap raw material and crushed it, then when steel prices went way up, many yards that had been holding older stuff in a corner, crushed it all.

Lets pretend that I'm 30+ years younger than I am and I buy an older car, great I blop down 3-7 grand on the unloved mid 70's rear drive car. I drive it like most young boys would and blow up the olds 350, I with my friends drive from junk yard to junk yard looking for a running replacement or one we can get running and drop in. GOOD LUCK. need a Honda/suburu/toyo/kia/etc one, rows and rows.

Back when I was a young boy and started driving, you could walk into any yard and find rows of totaled cars with an olds v8 to pull out and stab into your junker.
Those days have passed.
The real kicker is those front drive crap boxes, will kick the ass of the p.o.s. American v8 rear drive car they can buy that be in their price range, it handle better, 9 times out of 10 is faster. and parts are a few hours in a junk yard away. And before anyone says, you can get a fox mustang for a grand for a hoopty, yup you can but it is a rolling p.o.s. needing everything. 4 grand gets you a somewhat clean runner. but again, parts are a problem The junkyards are not full of them anymore. so need a fender. or to replace that world class t5 you blew up. you might just be s.o.l.
Only saving grace is the retro mustang is now going on 15 years old, and a v8 one can be had for 6-9 grand. Problem is most kids don't have that to buy a car,
I saved for my first car, with a paper route , mowing lawns, saved up some money, bought a 50 buck car needing a trans, paid 75 for the trans, and swapped it in.
Today a kid can get a 500.00 civic/accord/etc and go to a yard and get the part they need and swap it in and be golden and on the road,
They are not going to walk in and get a th350 , if they do it is nothing more than a core that you'll be rebuilding.
I'd like nothing better than to see todays youth in 3rd gen f bodys/mustangs/g bodys/b bodys/the grandma fresh mopar rear drivers. but lets face it, most of them where slugs.
That 1987 Camaro with a tbi 3o5 heck the tpi 350 that his buddies 200k mile + accord just waxed (blew doors off it) doesn't make those cars seem cool to any young person that would be looking at those f bodies because of speed.

Another problem is most kids today, their parents didn't work on the family car, not because they didn't know how to, but because cars didn't need it. no cap/rotor/wires/plugs/etc They were a 100k then replace, same with coolant, and everything else. So the love of working on the vehicle with dad went into the history books for the most part. They have no connection to a vehicle other than to use a phase from street outlaws, just to go A to B.

[Russell]

Let's talk abiut the lack of stick shift cars!