Could They Sell This Today?

[Monster]

How soon so many forget.

Let's look at something closer to home, that I am familiar with .. the 1965 Chevrolet Corvette. The base engine was the 250hp, 327ci motor and optional upgrades were;

L75 327ci, 300hp - $53.80
L79 327ci, 350hp - $107.60
L76 327ci, 365hp - $129.15
L84 327ci, 375hp FI - $538.00
L78 396ci, 425hp - $292.70

The big-block 396ci engine produced 425hp for $293, compared to the Rochester fuel injected 327ci producing 375hp for $538 ($245 more, for 50hp less). Chevrolet only sold 771 fuel injected cars and discontinued that option for 18-years.

Looks to me like GM orchestrated the demise of fuel injection, probably due to a poor gross profit margin.

[squirrel]

and be sure to multiply those engine option costs by inflation...roughly by ten. So the FI motor was a 5k option, and the big block was a 3k option (in todays prices). Compare that with the 30k or so markup for the "hot" models these days.

it truly was a bargain

[Eric]

Let's look at something closer to home, that I am familiar with .. the 1965 Chevrolet Corvette. The base engine was the 250hp, 327ci motor and optional upgrades were;

L75 327ci, 300hp - $53.80
L79 327ci, 350hp - $107.60
L76 327ci, 365hp - $129.15
L84 327ci, 375hp FI - $538.00
L78 396ci, 425hp - $292.70

The big-block 396ci engine produced 425hp for $293, compared to the Rochester fuel injected 327ci producing 375hp for $538 ($245 more, for 50hp less). Chevrolet only sold 771 fuel injected cars and discontinued that option for 18-years.

Looks to me like GM orchestrated the demise of fuel injection, probably due to a poor gross profit margin.

That 293. bucks difference , is no different than todays. Camaro. the turbo 4 base car is 26k the base v8 is 32k
And when you think of the amount of extra things they have to change outside the engine itself today. That 293. in 1965 money doesn't look at that cheap. as into days dollars is 2368.00 and back then they didn't have much to change past the engine. mounts,springs, a bigger fuel line.
Today the change in equipment to put the v8 in the car outside the engine itself is HUGE. much more than engine mounts, front springs and a bigger fuel line.
The F.I. died because it was a nightmare, cars sold by word of mouth, you buy it, and it always back at the dealer, you don't say many good things. They had the same teething problems in the late 70's and 80's with fuel injection, only this time they had to make it work, the epa required it, as the carb wasn't going to meter the fuel correctly enough and long enough without service. Something in the 60's wasn't an issue. the carb was good enough. the epa regs didn't force them to stick with it.
So, the old mechanical f.I. is a moot point. it's cost was basic , limited volume of sales and cost to produce divided by those units built. Same reason the small block chevy parts were cheaper than most, shear volume divided by R&D cost.

[Eric]

and be sure to multiply those engine option costs by inflation...roughly by ten. So the FI motor was a 5k option, and the big block was a 3k option (in todays prices). Compare that with the 30k or so markup for the "hot" models these days.

it truly was a bargain

Not really.
even back then you had the basic small block powered car, the big block car then the king of the hill cars. The LS6, the L88 in chevy land. ford it was the boss or sideoilers. mopar it was the hemi.

Todays basic base cars are not the turds of the ole days. they have 300hp turbo4 or a v6. the v8 trim car is 430hp to 450+ and not really all that much than that base powered one once you look at how it'll be optioned off the dealership floor. and no one is ordering the base car with no options as you'll pay more for it than taking what is on the dealers lot and the drop off sticker you get over the ordered one that you'll pay what that sticker list it at.
so that 34k base powered car isn't much cheaper than the v8 powered one. at 35-36k on the dealers floor.
Sure the Z-28/ZL-1/ZR-1 are stupid money. but they are a HUGE jump in power and handling from the standard base v8 one.
The old days, you got a more powerful engine that was it, the car was the same, handled like crap and stopped worse.
Now take the that fact and put it todays world.
The 2018 LT4 engine is 14000.00 list with the e rod kit to run it legal like, 11500.00 just the crate engine. That ZR-1 monster is 17k crate. and not only has 200+ more power, it has much more race long high rpm use parts in it. Todays the bargain. it doesn't look like it, because the metrics are not the same, the top dog model today isn't just dropping a different engine in the nose and sending it out the door.
And if you look at the old cars in 2018 money. The spread is much bigger. than the new cars
An 2018 Camaro SS nicely loaded is 42k and 450hp. the halo model is 80k with 650 hp.
An 1970 chevelle with the LS-5 and the MIGHT LS6 price spread is much much more than 32k. it isn't even close to that.
The 1968/9 big block vette and the L88 price spread makes the chevelle's look tiny.
The halo car wasn't a bargain back then, and it isn't now.
It only seems so. because everyone is comparing apples to oranges. back in the day, just drop an engine in and call it a day. as long as it went straight faster than the lesser engine. great. heck most times the lesser engine car braked and handled better.
The problem is a 293 dollar difference in cost today seems cheap but back then that was a huge jump.
Today a 32k difference seams huge and it is, but unlike the old days it isn't just dropping in an engine and calling it good.

[RockJustRock]

Performance is opportunism. It is rarely used, just something to brag about. New cars, trading every other year or less is a luxury for the wealthy. A modern car can run 10-20 years easily. People don't drive as much. No long vacation trips, a few thousand miles a year max. The auto industry is just in it to rape the willing. Performance "enthusiasts" are just EXTRA willing. SUV buyers are extra willing. To pay $20-$30K extra to sit 18 inches higher, have room for the kids to chase each other and have all wheel drive in case of a climate driven apocalypse is no more prudent than paying that price for the POTENTIAL to go 150, 180 or 200 MPH. SO all the industry wants to make are performance cars and SUVs. Let the masses buy imported and/or used. Detroit will just downsize, maximize profit potential and cater to the wealthy.

No new car purchase, especially domestic is prudent. Let your 300+HP V6 be your Roadrunner. Buy it used. Or buy a Camry. Or a used Camry. Detroit will still pay it's few remaining executives and assembly line workers.

[squirrel]

Today a 32k difference seams huge and it is, but unlike the old days it isn't just dropping in an engine and calling it good.

The difference is that in the old days, you had the option of just dropping in the big engine, and calling it good. You can't do that today.

and my old crap is pretty much a bare bones car with a big bad motor. I like them that way.

[Eric]

The difference is that in the old days, you had the option of just dropping in the big engine, and calling it good. You can't do that today.

and my old crap is pretty much a bare bones car with a big bad motor. I like them that way.

That is great, and I like my cars that way also, but we are a tiny/tiny part of the car buying public. and most of us, don't buy new cars/trucks so, our opinion don't mean crap to those designing what a package/option group will include.
The reason, they don't offer the base car with just the screamer engine is, wait for it ,wait for it, no one bought them. once they got used to getting all the other options.
Remember we went for 2 decades plus with nothing noteworthy as far as power. and in that time got used to even the most basic of vehicles having everything a loaded catty in the '70 would have had. as standard. Then came the rebirth of power and most would not give up the extras when buying the more powerful engine package.
If they did ,they'd market it to the buying public.
The oems leant fast to not even entertain what those in the hobby want, as we'd claim, ya, build it we'll be the first in line to buy it. Then they do, and well talk is cheap.

[Eric]

I remember what it cost to, build a stroker small block in 1980, at the time 424 was about the limit . and to build it and get 700 hp. out of it , you were looking at 15k+ 20k+ when you factor in the toilet ontop of the intake and spark system. that's in 1980's money.
Now you can walk into the chevy dealers parts dept. heck go online and have it shipped o your door. s/c 427 ZR-1 crate 17k. in todays money.
That 15000.00 424 stroker today would cost 46035.00 if the lack of cheap aftermarket parts never happened and we were still stuck with only the high end pricey parts.
it turn key at 20k in 1980 would be 61340.00 yes your eyes are not playing tricks on you. that is over 61 thousand dollars.
Todays the bargain hands down.
That crate low compression 454 crate that in 1980 was 2700.00 and a roots blower and all that went with it. isn't much of a bargain in todays money either.
The great thing is between the 1980 and today, there are tons of parts to make 400+ hp cheaply.
This was not the case back then. not using new parts.
Remember the days when you had oem heads/ parts dept over counter heads and 1 or 2 aftermarket brands of alum heads. and that was it. and that was if you were a bowtie boy, the Pontiac/buick/olds/ford/mopar guys were not so lucky and the few that were out there were stupid money.
We got it made today. only down side is the lack of machine shops today .

[AndyB]

Squirrel makes a reasonable point saying that if you had an old car with the crap base engine, you could chuck the hot big block in yourself. You still can, though.

The problem is that you can't get the big block because it isn't an option, so the parts aren't there. If you want to take your 2.0L Kia and put the optional V6 into it? Very doable! You'll have the same problems that you'd have had in the old days (does it work with that trans, the suspension isn't set for the heavier motor, etc). The major difference is that you don't just run fuel to the carb, you have to pull the whole injection system and swap that in. Simply put, there's more parts and more integration to the car, so it's more of a hassle.

(There's also a ton more emissions shit to screw around with, joy.)

That said, today's engines are hugely better than the old ones. You don't need to rebuild a motor after 50-100k miles, you can comfortably expect 250k out of it if you don't pull a numbskull mistake like running out of oil or something.

I always try to buy the best engine in whatever car I'm buying (modern cars). Not because of the power difference... well, okay, some.... But mostly because it means you're getting the better suspension, better brakes, nicer interior, and so forth--a better car overall. I do wish they'd bring back options that mean you can get the good motor in the cheaper models, though. Remember the fox Mustang 5.0 LX? Skip the body kit and silly crap, and get the basic model with a great engine!

I did notice that the 2019 Ford Ranger finally has the engine that I complained about awhile back: They're coming with a turbo four. Finally! Sadly, they're no longer a truck. They're a stupid four door thing with an open trunk, so absolutely worthless.

I'm also waiting for this "we're going to make trucks and our high-profit sporty stuff only' routine to completely bite Detroit right in the ass. All we need is for gas prices to spike up to $5 again, and I doubt those oversized, non-useful pseudo trucks and jacked-up station wagons... I mean, SUV's.... will stop selling pretty quickly. Just like last time. You also wonder some about the mileage; because of the ridiculous laws requiring a given average MPG for a manufacturer, it seems very strange that they'd drop the inexpensive, high efficency stuff at the bottom of the range. I bet Detroit would sell more cars if they made more that were worth buying.

[squirrel]

there's not a lot of profit in cars that are worth buying, unfortunately.

I think new cars are ok as transportation appliances, but they sure don't give you anywhere near the bang-for-the-buck that you can get building an old car.

[Thumpin455]

The Trans Am has never been the "roadrunner" style model, that fell to the Formula from 1970 to 2002. The Formula could have all the TA performance parts, and not all the bells and whistles. Thats why I have 4 Trans Ams, and 6 Formula birds, including a 98 with the automatic I picked up when it was 7 years old for $7000. The Formula got the big engine, swaybars, and fun TA stuff, but you could get them stripped down without every power option imaginable. The TA after 1979 was filled with fluff, but that was the last year you could get one without all the extras. I have a bare bones 79 TA, no AC, only power steering and brakes, 403 no T tops. Its quite rare in its own right. I think its funny the 6 speeds were being sold for more, because they were slower than the autos with stock converters, and got seriously beat with a mild stall. One of my other TAs is the 10th Anniversary, that thing is loaded with everything you could get on the platform. WS6, AC, power windows, leather seats with embroidered birds on the headrests, its the first one to sell for more than $10k. My 79 Formula had WS6, 4 speed, power glass, AC, and the 301 with a 4 barrel. Ready made swap to a 400 or 455... until the ST10 broke then it got a Th400. It was way less than the 10th Anniversary or the other Trans Ams, all of which are 79s.

You could get the Formula for a lot less than the TA, for a while it was less expensive than the v6 Camaro until GM realized they were selling V8 Pontiacs cheaper than v6 chevys. The GTO was and is a great car, and I agree, a different name would have been great. It wasn't so much the purists, though they are easy to blame, its the price tag and leather everything with almost zero options, only colors and transmission. Now the 72 Formula 455 is one of the rarest Pontiacs ever built, only eclipsed by the SD Formulas and the 98 WS6 convertible..

My Formula has cloth seats, no TCS, no HUD or anything like that, it has AC and power windows, the only things that are standard on a TA. If it was a WS6 convertible, it would be one of two, but as it is, the Formula is not hard to find, they are lighter, cheaper, and you could special order them without the power windows and stuff. You could get the Z28 like that, and an AF friend of mine did exactly that. He special ordered a very light 01 Z28 and it ran a 12.90 completely stock the first time at the track. No option to do that with the GTO, they went for the mystique and called it a premium car, when they should have known better. The Judge started out like a Formula, then went to be a bloated option laden car with a bigger price tag. It didn't sell nearly as well.

Yes the Formula is not a high production vehicle, my point is they existed as the lower cost option to the TA. No such thing existed with the GTO. They wanted to exploit the name, and failed miserably. I still want an 05 or 06 though... real bad. They are almost cheap enough for me to get one. No way was I going to plunk down $34k for one back in 04 or 05. They priced it about $10k out of the range I would have gone for.

[Gateclyve Photographic]

It tis comical, commenting on the front drive 4 bangers being hard to work on, clearly you have not touched a v8 anything that has been produced in the last 20 years..

No. I race a V8 built within the past seven years. It's not as easy to work on as a flathead, but it's easier than our "hot hatch" FWD from the '00s

Cash for clunkers took many of the cheap raw material and crushed it, then when steel prices went way up, many yards that had been holding older stuff in a corner, crushed it all.

. Yes, but there is still stuff out there. Millions of light trucks, Jeeps, retired interceptors, pony cars .... Even a few affordable antiques ....

Back when I was a young boy and started driving, you could walk into any yard and find rows of totaled cars with an olds v8 to pull out and stab into your junker.
Those days have passed.

That would explain thriving stuff such as "LS Fest" . . . .

The real kicker is those front drive crap boxes, will kick the ass of the p.o.s. American v8 rear drive car they can buy that be in their price range, it handle better, 9 times out of 10 is faster. and parts are a few hours in a junk yard away.

Then one would expect the streets, strips, and various budget racing formulae to be numerically dominated by such vehicles . . . . Yet many will suggest the FWD "tuner" market has actually shrunk and the star cars are old RWDs (e.g. AE86 Toyota; A80 Supra), WRC homologation AWDs (EVO, WRX-STI) and the recent RWD 2+2s (FR-S/BRZ/Toyota 86)

Today a kid can get a 500.00 civic/accord/etc and go to a yard and get the part they need and swap it in and be golden and on the road,

And get walked by any number of decent "built" pickups, Jeeps, Interceptors, gangsta 300s . . . .

I'd like nothing better than to see todays youth in 3rd gen f bodys/mustangs/g bodys/b bodys/the grandma fresh mopar rear drivers. but lets face it, most of them where slugs.

They're hotter than the Flatheads that the old timers had . . . 0-60 for a stock '46 Ford was about 19 seconds . . . even the worst 1980s stock "performance" car is at least eight to ten seconds quicker . . .

Another problem is most kids today, their parents didn't work on the family car, not because they didn't know how to, but because cars didn't need it. no cap/rotor/wires/plugs/etc They were a 100k then replace, same with coolant, and everything else. So the love of working on the vehicle with dad went into the history books for the most part. .

Yes. See earlier posts.

[Gateclyve Photographic]

. Let your 300+HP V6 be your Roadrunner. Buy it used. Or buy a Camry. Or a used Camry. Detroit will still pay it's few remaining executives and assembly line workers.

Sorry but no 'buzzin' half-dozen" lump (perhaps turbos excepted) has the visceral qualities necessary.

The "fail" of stuff as diverse as the new $400K Ford GT, the Plymouth Prowler, the revival of the Monte Carlo, and the last of the Mercury Cougars can be linked (at least in part) to six-cylinder power. (the last two were also cursed with FWD )

The "Detroit muscle" experience was about more than just objective numbers. Sound. Feel. Image, TORQUE! . . . . That takes eight slugs a--pumpin' in all but the rarest exceptions . . . . That's also why electrics won't cut it, regardless of how quick and fast they are before the expensive, earth-crushing batteries go flat.

As I wrote before, I've done the less-than-eight-cylinder thing several times (and still own some of the old leftovers) . . . Objectively, it's just not as good (unless one's a hyper-miler or some sort of EPA-worshiping climate alarmist, or building an ultra-light to contest a specific competition class)

[Gateclyve Photographic]

The GTO was and is a great car, and I agree, a different name would have been great. It wasn't so much the purists, though they are easy to blame, its the price tag and leather everything with almost zero options, only colors and transmission..

True. Plus, it had all the looks of a rush job, though. Lutz's revival of the Goat had bad Cavalier "rental car" styling. The tire sizes looked wimpy. The lines didn't suggest high-performance. The original new GTO didn't' even have the fake hood scoops (every prior GTO had some sort of special hood), much less a proper revival of Ram Air.

All of this ignores the whole powerplant issue -- with at least a fraction of purists not accepting the "sacrilege" of a Chevy-powered Goat, regardless of its objective performance numbers.

Note that GM essentially did the same car from a specifications standpoint over as the new Camaro and had (for a time) a big sales hit. Chrysler cut down the LX platform for the Challenger (which true new Goat-o-philes would undoubtedly dismiss as too big and heavy, among other things) and it's still going strong. So revival of the GTO may have been a good idea on paper, but the hasty execution was plainly under-cooked FAIL.

[Eric]

True. Plus, it had all the looks of a rush job, though. Lutz's revival of the Goat had bad Cavalier "rental car" styling. The tire sizes looked wimpy. The lines didn't suggest high-performance. The original new GTO didn't' even have the fake hood scoops (every prior GTO had some sort of special hood), much less a proper revival of Ram Air.

All of this ignores the whole powerplant issue -- with at least a fraction of purists not accepting the "sacrilege" of a Chevy-powered Goat, regardless of its objective performance numbers.

Note that GM essentially did the same car from a specifications standpoint over as the new Camaro and had (for a time) a big sales hit. Chrysler cut down the LX platform for the Challenger (which true new Goat-o-philes would undoubtedly dismiss as too big and heavy, among other things) and it's still going strong. So revival of the GTO may have been a good idea on paper, but the hasty execution was plainly under-cooked FAIL.

back in the 60's they didn't have to spend 50k in retesting the areo of the car by adding a fake scoop for the epa either.
Face it the 2004 gto smokes the old goat in every way, and the 05-06 ups that with the bigger engine.
it was faster it handled better. and would go 100k without much of anything if well cared for, something unheard of in the good ole days.
Should've left the holden nose on it, and just slapped sunbird on it. it have got no back lash and sold better, as the purist that would've never bought it anyways, even if it was a carbon copy of the 1966 gto. .