Toyota Controversy

[RockJustRock]

I think it was the entire cars that sucked, not just the engines, but think what you want. Styling started to derail in '70 then went completely off in '73.

[SuperBuickGuy]

1) G.m. is still stupid. 50 years later and they still can't make a small car people would buy.

2) ford is no better. and mopar gave up on small cars killing off the dart .

3) Sorry even at 50% market share the cost to update the buick v8/olds/Pontiac/chevy/catty would've been way to much to .

4) G.m. did marketing studies on this. take the decal off, and most assumed well car is a buick, the engine is a buck. Even when the person was shown a buick with a mopar in it.
5) Those of us in the hobby tend to forget that these are still businesses , job #1 is to make money.
6) Do I think the chevy v8 should've been the one to hang your hat on when they started this. not really, but it was the one with the factory parts support and hobby support. and was the base of marine power.

7) They picked what was thought of as the best choice. they killed off the 229 chevy v6 and kept the buick. ,kept the iron duke. when the quad4 came to be the ironduke should've been put to rest.

numbering to help with the points....

1) no one makes a small car the masses want - and why would they? they had small cars for 2 reasons: fuel economy and cheaper perceived cost.
- today you can have a full sized car that is more efficient then the little cars of yor - not just that but they are light-years safer
- the second problem is, what I think, the biggest problem - people believe smaller should cost less, but it doesn't. The very minimal material cost is more then consumed in the cost of running 2 lines. Add in the first problem, and people really don't 'want' a small car. Don't believe me, go back (sorry Dan, gonna pick on you for a moment but you're a friend so you'll understand) When I got my Colorado, look at the comments about 'you could have bought a real truck for the dollars.... while I think Dan is starting to at least understand my way of thinking (that parking a full size truck in my daily commute is nearly impossible) the point is most people fully think bigger is better, even when the bigger truck has lower towing capacity because it weighs more. Add to that, I don't get that much better fuel economy (it is better, but you'd expect a lot more) and most people look at the balance and go "meet the highest need" which is usually larger.....

2) Ford and Mopar are tough-loving the world, unless you're in Tokyo, small cars are still small cars (that get the same fuel economy as mid-sized cars). That said, Ford and Fiat both produce small cars elsewhere to meet those markets - they just don't sell them here because it costs too much to produce and has no return... as you said, it's a profit motive.

3) oh come now, unless car sales are lower then they were in the late 50s, that's utter BS. You should be ashamed. If there are cars being sold by others, that IS marketing opportunity.

4) I'd only know because I know Buick - but that is true. Yet that wasn't my point. Let's way back. In the 50s, Chevy was the value leader, Olds was the salesman car, Pontiac was the sporty car, Buick was grandpa's car and Cadillac was rich grandpa's car. The demographics want different things. Chevy guys like going fast as substitute for comfort, Olds, well is dead because travelling salesmen are as well (and they use rental cars), Pontiac was a huge mistake because it could have been a BMW fighter if GM had the balls to stay in the game (not going to politics or management, just leave it there and not be that other guy). Buick and Cadillac are still around because they meet demographics - and as long as they remember their roots, will be around for a long, long time. While I love Buick, ultimately, they made a wise business decision to end on the GNX - but the car that that demographic (as example) wants is 'reliable' 'something to haul around the grandkids' 'has sufficient power for grandpa's lead foot. That motor isn't an LS because it's not a motor designed to maximize torque (again grandpa's lead foot). Cadillac has had different motors and if they hadn't been junk, would probably still be produced - but they have a problem in that they also 'need' to cover the BMW/Audi market as well.... they would be better off to go dominate the baller/rich market then let a new Pontiac take on the people who like corners.

5) the only people who forget are ones who don't run their own business or farm.

6) why not, I read, once, about an engineer who was proud that he lead the Aztek development.... he's right in that there will always be haters, no matter how perfect the car or the motor.

7) the 229 had crank problems, and as GM seems to continue to learn the hard way is you don't do beta testing of motors on the general public. the 231 has 20 years development over the 229 and for that reason alone is a better motor. Hot rodders don't care how they win, they want to win.... of course, winning in something not traditional is bonus

[Eric]

The Aztek was 15 years too early, ahead of it's time.

[RockJustRock]

????

[pdub]

They're playing a lot commercials for the Lexus UX on the TV. What does that stand for, Ugly Experiment?

[RockJustRock]

Actually it's Urban Explorer...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_UX

After gracing the highways with things like this Lexus can do no wrong in my eyes.....

[pdub]

Actually it's Urban Explorer...

I can't get past the front of it. It looks like the front of a fireplace in a living room, the thing that keeps sparks from coming out into the room.

[Eric]

I can't get past the front of it. It looks like the front of a fireplace in a living room, the thing that keeps sparks from coming out into the room.

reminds me of

[RockJustRock]

Well.... they do sound nasty....