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Lug nut installation guide.... we're doomed

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  • #16
    Originally posted by squirrel View Post
    years ago when I first got involved with the robotics team at school, they were at a competition and the school van got a flat. The kids were tasked to change the flat tire. Yup, they put the lug nuts on backwards...but I was watching, and let them know there might be a problem.


    But it looks like a lawyer wrote that thing you posted!
    Ok driver's education class, teacher takes two girls to do flat tire change, they put the spare on and started grabbing lug nuts, teacher stops them and says to them " you do remember which lug nuts go on which stud " they almost cried. I still chuckle about that one.
    Pt 2010, Long Haul 2011,12,13,14,15,16,17, 18, 19, 23
    If you wait, all that happens is that you get older

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    • #17
      Originally posted by squirrel View Post
      years ago when I first got involved with the robotics team at school, they were at a competition and the school van got a flat. The kids were tasked to change the flat tire. Yup, they put the lug nuts on backwards...but I was watching, and let them know there might be a problem.


      But it looks like a lawyer wrote that thing you posted!
      where it came from was a nice Adobe flier.... that's all marketing genius, but yeah, looks like boilerplate
      Doing it all wrong since 1966

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      • #18
        Law firms taking stupid cases caused this. Why this is a shock to you, is comical. as you know darn well, why they need to right a book on how to install lug nuts.
        If lawyers didn't take the cases, there be no need to be worrying about covering their asses 5 ways till sunday.

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        • #19
          I read the 'instructions to the 3rd line .
          Previously HoosierL98GTA

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Dan Barlow View Post
            I read the 'instructions to the 3rd line .
            My issue and distrust with instructions is, in my career I used to write them. If I wrote that, are you going to believe it?
            Charter member of the Turd Nuggets

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            • #21
              This type of document is to protect not the lug nut end user but the manufacturer.
              They have to assume every one is the dumbest of the dumb.

              Common sense is not that common..

              Some one stopped to help a friend´s wife who had a flat.
              He installed the spare, out of four lug nuts he lost one, one was installed backwards,
              one was loose and the remaining nut tight.
              I found it when I did a service on the car weeks later.
              My friend says...."He did his best, it was a good deed"......

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              • #22
                Like most instruction manuals for stuff we buy these days, there are 10 pages of warnings and dangers, that we skip through to get to the "which button to push to make it do what I want" part.

                If there were only a few important warnings, folks might be tempted to actually read them. But no...they have to list every possibility, so we ignore all of it.
                My fabulous web page

                "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by RockJustRock View Post
                  Except on certain Pontiacs.
                  and Mopars from back in the day...
                  Patrick & Tammy
                  - Long Haulin' 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014...Addicting isn't it...??

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                  • #24
                    The pages of warnings etc. do turn people off and thus in actual circumstances may work against safety instead of for. Eventually that needs to be accounted for in what's required of manufacturers.

                    If you're really sure you know how to fasten a wheel on, jack up the driven end of your car and have someone else get in and run it up to 50, 70, 100 mph while you sit there a couple feet away watching all that weight whirr and spin and see how confident you feel...you'd get more of a sense of what's going on than being in the car on the road.

                    Bolting on a wheel used to be a simple thing, with stamped steel wheels having features such as a raised area under the lug which could flex somewhat at installation, the obvious 60-degree c'sink, the closely-fit center register and the fact that the wheel there was designed to fit the car which had the guaranteed right stud length. Aftermarket wheels changed all that and created a bunch of ways to screw up, some of which are confusingly addressed in the OP's installation slip which doesn't quite inspire a compelling urge to follow the good instructions that are there.

                    Besides the usual backwards-nut thing which really is a dumb move and would be indicator #1 that someone shouldn't be working on cars, I've seen a couple others lately:

                    Cast-aluminum wheels using hardware store washers to space out for caliper clearance. Wheel-to-backing interface is vital, and slipping (operative word) flatwashers in there which are almost guaranteed to be of slightly different thicknesses as well as defeating the friction needed between the two surfaces is an invitation to the deal where the car is on one side of the freeway and the wheel over there on the other. The studs alone can't do the job of holding a wheel on straight and tight without flat precise mating surfaces. When we got our little wagon last year, I noticed a couple missing (broken-away) studs behind the aftermarket wheels. I detected the seller being a little cagey about it...fine, I know I can fix whatever and used his little emotional blip as leverage to get a better price, and trailered the car home as I normally do. Pulling it apart I saw those washers and how the nuts barely engaged the studs...this guy had his wife driving the car?! New studs (and nuts), clean mating surfaces, eliminating the washers and then machining off the back of the wheels for caliper clearance in what was a non-critical area fixed it, machining was easily done here but would have been worth anyone spending a couple-hundred bucks at a shop. And do know, for whatever use as spacers you might employ flatwashers, one box of washers may have been made on multiple machines using whatever stock thickness the manufacturer stuck in there and will often vary in thickness 5- or 10-thousanths. If you need them to function as a matched set, measure with a mic and make sure you know what you've got. Behind a wheel, especially a rigid cast one, using varied-thickness washers is even stupider than just using washers period.

                    But even I forgot to re-torque the lugs after a few miles. It's really important with aluminum wheels and more so with new studs. A week later I heard a noise...yep, one wheel loose! My bad.

                    Another was a guy had really thin spacers behind steel wheels, just enough to cure a tire rubbing problem with his set of drag radials. Stamped steel wheels if you look on the back side are shaped so that there is a contact area surrounding the bolt hole and another circular area surrounding all the holes. The Mr. Gasket spacers had all these extra voids in them so they'd fit more cars which caused incomplete wheel contact around the studs, and were such a small diameter that they rode off the edges of the circular feature in the wheels and left them really just hanging there off the studs with very poor contact to the axles/drums. These were installed by a tire shop, who presumably had done many thousands of wheel installations! Torquing them down actually bent the wheel centers. I had to use some precision measuring techniques and a very non-precision sledge hammer to get them all straight again, and use new spacers made of flat material with precision-sized and spaced holes for the studs. Even that left two interface surfaces instead of one, which is a bad thing that spacers obviously do and if there was ever slippage, the stress on the stud greatly increases with a longer distance from the axle rear face where it seats to the wheel face where the nut seats. I'd bet that most of the time when you see a case where a drag car has a wheel leave it at launch, on investigation we would find exactly that type of problem.

                    So should we make the OP install slip even longer yet, since there are guys who actually have a lot of experience working around cars but still make mistakes?

                    No, I guess we shouldn't. But, that's why we have K-Rail...
                    ...

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                    • #25
                      The Cragars I had worried me, the lug nuts were not cones, they were flat with stainless washers.
                      The instructions were to torque them in two stages.....criss crossing....and retorque at intervals until they stayed put !!

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                      • #26
                        I hate to break this to you (yeah, pun too) - but it ain't the lawyer who are doing the stupid things, it's the morons who do stupid things. To blame the lawyers is to blame the guns, the cars, the ladders or any other thing people misuse... my favorite line in my work continues to be one of the most used "so how did you do that? no, seriously, that seems to violate several laws of physics and sense...." but yeah, it's all the lawyers fault for putting warnings there for you to ignore.... seriously, did you listen to yourself when you said "I can't read the instructions because it's too long".... really? with ever warning comes a darwin award.... and the fact that people cannot understand the physics behind holding a wheel on - is cause for lamenting... but there there snowflakes, I know it's so hard to read all those instructions. They're there so that when, not if, you forget to tighten your lug nuts, the lawyer will look at the situation and laugh at you for being an idiot.... but yeah, they're so hard to read.... poor poor snowflakes.

                        As someone who gets entertained by these stories - let me give you a tell that you know you're going to get to call someone a dumbass..... they bitch about all those instructions and how hard they are to read.... where you see the Court cases, I see the thousands of dumbasses that the lawyer laughed out of his office.
                        Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; February 7, 2019, 01:47 PM.
                        Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DanStokes View Post
                          Did they explain what to do with old MOPAR LH threaded nuts?

                          Dan
                          .....or Studebakers?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post
                            I hate to break this to you (yeah, pun too) - but it ain't the lawyer who are doing the stupid things, it's the morons who do stupid things. To blame the lawyers is to blame the guns, the cars, the ladders or any other thing people misuse... my favorite line in my work continues to be one of the most used "so how did you do that? no, seriously, that seems to violate several laws of physics and sense...." but yeah, it's all the lawyers fault for putting warnings there for you to ignore.... seriously, did you listen to yourself when you said "I can't read the instructions because it's too long".... really? with ever warning comes a darwin award.... and the fact that people cannot understand the physics behind holding a wheel on - is cause for lamenting... but there there snowflakes, I know it's so hard to read all those instructions. They're there so that when, not if, you forget to tighten your lug nuts, the lawyer will look at the situation and laugh at you for being an idiot.... but yeah, they're so hard to read.... poor poor snowflakes.

                            As someone who gets entertained by these stories - let me give you a tell that you know you're going to get to call someone a dumbass..... they bitch about all those instructions and how hard they are to read.... where you see the Court cases, I see the thousands of dumbasses that the lawyer laughed out of his office.
                            SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT
                            You are claiming, that when the manufactor/vendor/brand has a user that was an idiot, and is in the law firms office to file a lawsuit.
                            It isn't the law firms, acts of taking on the morons case because they see dollar signs. ?? The list of warnings on instructions are there to protect the vendor/brand from the user that bought their product.
                            If the law firm said sorry we can't fix user error stupid , the case wouldn't get to courts.
                            If when the lug nuts fail from idiot install, and it let the wheel hit an oncoming vehicle. the lawfirm should be going after the owner of vehicle, but they see dollar signs and add the parts vendor/brand/manufactor to the list.
                            SORRY LAWYERS ARE THE REASON AND PROBLEM.
                            They know there is limited blood to get from the stone (the vehicle owner) but tons of plasma to be had going after a corporation. and why they need to protect their asses 5 ways till sundays. . They'll have 10 pages of warnings and the law firm will go looking for a loop hole. why because they see $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
                            so cut the b/s about. people always blame the lawyers.
                            That blame is earned. a lawyer/lawfirm after reading that instructions and all the warnings, should be sorry we can't take the case, or add them to the list of those we are going after. They don't. pfft. but it's not them.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by JamesMayberryIII View Post

                              SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT
                              You are claiming, that when the manufactor/vendor/brand has a user that was an idiot, and is in the law firms office to file a lawsuit.
                              It isn't the law firms, acts of taking on the morons case because they see dollar signs. ?? The list of warnings on instructions are there to protect the vendor/brand from the user that bought their product.
                              If the law firm said sorry we can't fix user error stupid , the case wouldn't get to courts.
                              If when the lug nuts fail from idiot install, and it let the wheel hit an oncoming vehicle. the lawfirm should be going after the owner of vehicle, but they see dollar signs and add the parts vendor/brand/manufactor to the list.
                              SORRY LAWYERS ARE THE REASON AND PROBLEM.
                              They know there is limited blood to get from the stone (the vehicle owner) but tons of plasma to be had going after a corporation. and why they need to protect their asses 5 ways till sundays. . They'll have 10 pages of warnings and the law firm will go looking for a loop hole. why because they see $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
                              so cut the b/s about. people always blame the lawyers.
                              That blame is earned. a lawyer/lawfirm after reading that instructions and all the warnings, should be sorry we can't take the case, or add them to the list of those we are going after. They don't. pfft. but it's not them.
                              Soooo, I don't know what business you are in but if a customer comes in your door and wants to buy your best widget and in the course of completing the transaction it becomes clear that he intends to use it in a foolish way - do you refuse to sell it to him and forgo the income to your business?

                              I agree with Aaron - blaming lawyers for peoples stupidity and greed is like blaming the gun for shooting deaths. Yes the gun is involved in the process - if it wasn't available it would take longer for one person to kill another BUT it is unclear that it would stop the action from eventually taking place.

                              in MY OPINION - the root of the problem is that it seems people like to blame others (anyone they can find) for the problems they encounter even when they are the predominant actor. It also seems to me that our society looks for the quick route to financial enrichment by attempting to sue someone (anyone they can find) when something goes less than spectacular in their life.

                              So at what point did we go from taking responsibilities for our own actions and learning from our mis-steps to looking for someone to blame for our stupidity and enlisting someone to "Make them PAY!".

                              Don't get me wrong - I am not a big fan of lawyers and I don't own any guns. However, they are both very valuable tools when applied appropriately.

                              .
                              Last edited by cstmwgn; February 8, 2019, 04:02 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Is is not the law firm that makes the laws. They operate within a system designed to try and make society equitable, for yes their own benefit but that is how capitalism works. If they feel they have a case that will be successful within the framework of the system they may push forward, if they feel a case either brought to them or identified by them will not be successful, they won't pursue it. Common sense. I understand that if you've ever been burned in a court of law you'd maybe be blaming the people who you saw there, but it's the shelves of books the judge has on his wall back in the office you can blame.
                                ...

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