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  • TheSilverBuick
    replied
    Mid-1977 is when GM switched from the odd-fire crank to split pin even fire cranks. My Skylark originally had an odd-fire 231.

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  • CTX-SLPR
    replied
    The line I've heard between the 231 and the 3.8L is the odd fire to even fire change approximately. The change to the "pre-series 1" stuff is the shift in bank offset to move the rods from being offset on the throws to being centered (known as off-center and on-center respectively) which happened in the late 80's. Balance shafts also came in with this change and it gets pretty nebulous between a "pre-series I" and a true series I. Series II is a pretty hard line as the deck height changed to shrink the motor overall. GM even labeled the badges as 3800 Series II. There is a Series III which was more evolutionary but the general distinction is some of the internals where improved (gradual phase in) and the engines (which by this point were all FWD) moved to throttle by wire and returnless fuel systems but the parts are largely cross compatible between Series II and III such as the later L32 rods going in the earlier L67 motors as an upgrade.

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  • Beagle
    replied
    okay, so where does the "Series" come into it relative to date? The 1961 and later stuff, the 1964 and later "even fire" with BOP bell, the Kaiser Jeep years, the re-introduction as the "odd-fire" in the 1975 or so, or the metric stuff when they started using it heavily in fwd cars, or the balance shaft years? hee hee.
    Last edited by Beagle; July 16, 2020, 01:01 PM.

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  • CTX-SLPR
    replied
    I don't think the Series 1 or even all of the pre-series 1 stuff was BOP-C bell, a good chunk of it was already Metric60.

    Not that I'm aware of, however there are plenty of FWD 3.8L blocks with the Metric60 bells which like you point out work on the TH700R4 if you wanted to go that way. Even the low deck 3.0L FWD blocks if you wanted to get crazy on the internals. Best source for a Metric60 3.8L blocks would be late the late 80's FWD stuff, heads will work but you'd basically have to use the '89 Turbo Trans-Am stuff as it used the FWD heads to clear the F-body engine bay.

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  • SuperBuickGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by CTX-SLPR View Post
    The GNX motor only has different turbo and intercooler; same "109" block with the BOP-C as the standard T-type cars. The major difference between a GNX and the rest of the T-types is the rear suspension which is a torque arm with a panhard rod vs. the standard triangulated 4 link and an extra body mount compared to the rest of the G-bodies.

    Now I'm running a 4L80E behind my "484" block 4.1L (3.965in bore vs. 3.800in bore) with a TransAdapt adapter setup but I've not really put any real road time on it but what little I have done has been great. Just get the extended length dowels for the block as the standard ones are too short to properly locate the transmission with the thickness of the adapter plate.
    somehow my point got lost in the translation. The Series II and Series III motors use the same bellhousing pattern as the 2.8 V6. The Series I uses the BOP bellhousing pattern. The BOP bellhousing will not bolt to the 2.8 or the Series II or III without an adapter. My point wasn't that it couldn't be mated but that it'd require an adapter from the aftermarket. ....

    at some point I'll drag out my various Buick motors and do a side-by-side comparison.... after all, I have a bunch of 215s, a 350, a bunch of 455s, a 231 GN hot air, and a Series III... not that I like Buicks or anything ;)
    hmmm.. and in that vein, I have a BOP 400 (with 475 internals), a BOP-C 400, at least one BOP t350, a 200r4, a 4L60e, a 4L80e, a 700r4, a 'normal' turbo 400 (or maybe not), a bunch of turbo 350s... then there's the 6.2 diesel stuff....

    I digress.... I think we're talking the same thing just in different words. My original question (which I think the answer is "no") was whether or not there was a 700r4 or derivative that had the BOP bellhousing pattern...
    Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; July 16, 2020, 10:05 AM.

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  • CTX-SLPR
    replied
    Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post

    the GNX motor has a different bellhousing - the only 4 speed auto I know of that will fit it is the 200r4. you turned me onto the Series 2 and 3 motors, they continue to impress me - stock (reworked) heads and stock bottom end that hands 750 hp... 1500 requires billet crank, but that's out of a 6. As far as the 4L80e - Kevin is why I went with the 4l80e in my wagon, you can get adapters to mate them to the Series 2 and 3 motors.... still, need to get the black thing out of the shop (more, I need to get the parts back on it so I can reclaim some shop space).... then back to the wagon and Defender
    The GNX motor only has different turbo and intercooler; same "109" block with the BOP-C as the standard T-type cars. The major difference between a GNX and the rest of the T-types is the rear suspension which is a torque arm with a panhard rod vs. the standard triangulated 4 link and an extra body mount compared to the rest of the G-bodies.

    Now I'm running a 4L80E behind my "484" block 4.1L (3.965in bore vs. 3.800in bore) with a TransAdapt adapter setup but I've not really put any real road time on it but what little I have done has been great. Just get the extended length dowels for the block as the standard ones are too short to properly locate the transmission with the thickness of the adapter plate.

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  • Beagle
    replied
    I've seen the almighty Regal up close and personal. What a hoot! I even won money at the casino on the way home from that trip, good times.

    I had a gen 1 carb/turbo 231 in a 1980 Monte Carlo. They evolved magnitudes of order better over the years, but that car was a lot better with a 350 SBC in it. They had to write entire books on making 3.8's live back then. This may have something to do with me saying the LS won't lose any sleep in the popularity contest... they don't seem to need significant mods to live at stupid power levels. Ring gap is pretty much free and they'll bolt right up to a decent transmission. Nothing new about transmission adapters though, that's been going on since well before my time!

    Don't get me wrong, I love a story of boost. I'm rolling around in two tiny V6 turbo trucks and they are shockingly good for the smallest V6 I've ever owned (2.7)... I've got bigger 4 cylinders (3.0) than that. They were a lot more interesting to me than the Coyote or 5.3 LS trucks. 400 ft lbs out of something with only six pistons smaller than my coffee cup, 900 RPM lower than the Coyote torque peak (also 400) got my attention. I'm all about automotive diversity, so I'll watch with interest.

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  • SuperBuickGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by Beagle View Post
    I was going to ask about adapters because I'm a little lazy these days. I have not much love for the 4l60. That is probably because Dad's stock grandpa driven 4.3 S10 grenaded one with less than 100k miles and it had never seen serious work. We hear all the time how guys spend stupid money on them and still it's a grenade with the pin pulled.

    1500 hp? Wow. Color me impressed.

    Stock block, stock crank, how much will that hold reliably? Where do things start breaking? Rods? Crank? I'm not sure when 600hp became my magic number, and I think it's about to change to 700 hp... if it will tolerate that on the stock long block then I'll probably change my tune a little. I think it takes more thought than a 700 hp LS, but that's all part of this game right?


    Keep watching the Aussie channels - Nugget Garage and Carnage.. both are racing those motors, one with a turbo, the other with the blower. Or, check out BBR's experience with racing one (yeah, Ford guy racing a Buick)...

    what attracts me the most to it is the V6 sound - they sound terrible - with a V6 in my 64 Wagon, no one will give it a second look until they wonder why they only see tail lights....

    the other thing is the 3800 is in the same family as the 231 V6 (the Grand National motor) - it's not a Chevy motor, not at all. It does have a few challenges that should be addressed before you make power (ARP head studs, Cometic gasket) .... but again, it harkens back to when Buick spanked Corvette.

    and Barra. Everything I've seen is 500 hp is about the limit with a Barra before major work is required to keep it together.... vs. 700 hp... and a shorter package.... straight 6s are cool for a number of reasons but it's like many other motors, it ain't cool if it doesn't fit.
    Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; July 16, 2020, 06:47 AM.

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  • Beagle
    replied
    I was going to ask about adapters because I'm a little lazy these days. I have not much love for the 4l60. That is probably because Dad's stock grandpa driven 4.3 S10 grenaded one with less than 100k miles and it had never seen serious work. We hear all the time how guys spend stupid money on them and still it's a grenade with the pin pulled.

    1500 hp? Wow. Color me impressed.

    Stock block, stock crank, how much will that hold reliably? Where do things start breaking? Rods? Crank? I'm not sure when 600hp became my magic number, and I think it's about to change to 700 hp... if it will tolerate that on the stock long block then I'll probably change my tune a little. I think it takes more thought than a 700 hp LS, but that's all part of this game right?



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  • SuperBuickGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by CTX-SLPR View Post
    It's an RPO L67 (3800 Supercharged) based so it's running a Metric60 bell 4L60E out of either an F-body or S-10. Stock Grand National (or any T-type) 3.8L Turbo6 was RPO LC2.

    I'd believe the 1500hp number unless there's some defect like too sharp a radius on a main cap, etc.
    the GNX motor has a different bellhousing - the only 4 speed auto I know of that will fit it is the 200r4. you turned me onto the Series 2 and 3 motors, they continue to impress me - stock (reworked) heads and stock bottom end that hands 750 hp... 1500 requires billet crank, but that's out of a 6. As far as the 4L80e - Kevin is why I went with the 4l80e in my wagon, you can get adapters to mate them to the Series 2 and 3 motors.... still, need to get the black thing out of the shop (more, I need to get the parts back on it so I can reclaim some shop space).... then back to the wagon and Defender

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  • CTX-SLPR
    replied
    Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post

    what 4L60e or 700r4 is behind a GNX motor?
    It's an RPO L67 (3800 Supercharged) based so it's running a Metric60 bell 4L60E out of either an F-body or S-10. Stock Grand National (or any T-type) 3.8L Turbo6 was RPO LC2.

    I'd believe the 1500hp number unless there's some defect like too sharp a radius on a main cap, etc.

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  • SuperBuickGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by CTX-SLPR View Post
    The whole weak transmission think probably limits taking it as far as you can as there is an L67 based turbo motor in a Grand National that was pulling down 700hp easy but again saddled with a 4L60E. Overall the blocks have a lot of more strength than the older 3.8L's with the crossbolted main caps, a solid valley, and thicker decks.
    what 4L60e or 700r4 is behind a GNX motor?
    Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; July 15, 2020, 02:13 PM.

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  • SuperBuickGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by Beagle View Post

    should be able to , came out of a farm implement... :|

    I kid... I kid.

    No, I don't think the 3800 will replace the LS for dirt cheap performance. 400hp out of a 6.0 LS is pretty much... put it on the dyno. Maybe a cam swap and headers for a 5.3 ... "mild" cam and headers on a 6.0 is an easy 500 hp / 500 ish Tq. The mill is genius. The thing it came I'm not always as fond of. The 4L80e enjoys good parts and multiple controllers too.

    I'd like to see the 3800 with a hairdryer instead of a huffer. What is the general torque limit the block will put up with?
    according to my guy who is building and running them (Kevin Yates Racing)... 1500 hp...
    Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; July 15, 2020, 02:21 PM.

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  • CTX-SLPR
    replied
    The whole weak transmission think probably limits taking it as far as you can as there is an L67 based turbo motor in a Grand National that was pulling down 700hp easy but again saddled with a 4L60E. Overall the blocks have a lot of more strength than the older 3.8L's with the crossbolted main caps, a solid valley, and thicker decks.
    Last edited by CTX-SLPR; July 15, 2020, 12:20 PM.

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  • Beagle
    replied
    Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post

    you do know what I think of Fords, right? though I may be bought for a few "ran when pulled" 3800s (like the one I just got with a rattly rod).

    joking aside, an allegedly useable 4L80e isn't that expensive - can you sneak them in as "used farm parts?" like I did with the 300tdi?
    should be able to , came out of a farm implement... :|

    I kid... I kid.

    No, I don't think the 3800 will replace the LS for dirt cheap performance. 400hp out of a 6.0 LS is pretty much... put it on the dyno. Maybe a cam swap and headers for a 5.3 ... "mild" cam and headers on a 6.0 is an easy 500 hp / 500 ish Tq. The mill is genius. The thing it came I'm not always as fond of. The 4L80e enjoys good parts and multiple controllers too.

    I'd like to see the 3800 with a hairdryer instead of a huffer. What is the general torque limit the block will put up with?
    Last edited by Beagle; July 15, 2020, 08:34 AM.

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