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  • #76
    I've seen the almighty Regal up close and personal. What a hoot! I even won money at the casino on the way home from that trip, good times.

    I had a gen 1 carb/turbo 231 in a 1980 Monte Carlo. They evolved magnitudes of order better over the years, but that car was a lot better with a 350 SBC in it. They had to write entire books on making 3.8's live back then. This may have something to do with me saying the LS won't lose any sleep in the popularity contest... they don't seem to need significant mods to live at stupid power levels. Ring gap is pretty much free and they'll bolt right up to a decent transmission. Nothing new about transmission adapters though, that's been going on since well before my time!

    Don't get me wrong, I love a story of boost. I'm rolling around in two tiny V6 turbo trucks and they are shockingly good for the smallest V6 I've ever owned (2.7)... I've got bigger 4 cylinders (3.0) than that. They were a lot more interesting to me than the Coyote or 5.3 LS trucks. 400 ft lbs out of something with only six pistons smaller than my coffee cup, 900 RPM lower than the Coyote torque peak (also 400) got my attention. I'm all about automotive diversity, so I'll watch with interest.
    Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post

      the GNX motor has a different bellhousing - the only 4 speed auto I know of that will fit it is the 200r4. you turned me onto the Series 2 and 3 motors, they continue to impress me - stock (reworked) heads and stock bottom end that hands 750 hp... 1500 requires billet crank, but that's out of a 6. As far as the 4L80e - Kevin is why I went with the 4l80e in my wagon, you can get adapters to mate them to the Series 2 and 3 motors.... still, need to get the black thing out of the shop (more, I need to get the parts back on it so I can reclaim some shop space).... then back to the wagon and Defender
      The GNX motor only has different turbo and intercooler; same "109" block with the BOP-C as the standard T-type cars. The major difference between a GNX and the rest of the T-types is the rear suspension which is a torque arm with a panhard rod vs. the standard triangulated 4 link and an extra body mount compared to the rest of the G-bodies.

      Now I'm running a 4L80E behind my "484" block 4.1L (3.965in bore vs. 3.800in bore) with a TransAdapt adapter setup but I've not really put any real road time on it but what little I have done has been great. Just get the extended length dowels for the block as the standard ones are too short to properly locate the transmission with the thickness of the adapter plate.
      Central TEXAS Sleeper
      USAF Physicist

      ROA# 9790

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      • #78
        Originally posted by CTX-SLPR View Post
        The GNX motor only has different turbo and intercooler; same "109" block with the BOP-C as the standard T-type cars. The major difference between a GNX and the rest of the T-types is the rear suspension which is a torque arm with a panhard rod vs. the standard triangulated 4 link and an extra body mount compared to the rest of the G-bodies.

        Now I'm running a 4L80E behind my "484" block 4.1L (3.965in bore vs. 3.800in bore) with a TransAdapt adapter setup but I've not really put any real road time on it but what little I have done has been great. Just get the extended length dowels for the block as the standard ones are too short to properly locate the transmission with the thickness of the adapter plate.
        somehow my point got lost in the translation. The Series II and Series III motors use the same bellhousing pattern as the 2.8 V6. The Series I uses the BOP bellhousing pattern. The BOP bellhousing will not bolt to the 2.8 or the Series II or III without an adapter. My point wasn't that it couldn't be mated but that it'd require an adapter from the aftermarket. ....

        at some point I'll drag out my various Buick motors and do a side-by-side comparison.... after all, I have a bunch of 215s, a 350, a bunch of 455s, a 231 GN hot air, and a Series III... not that I like Buicks or anything ;)
        hmmm.. and in that vein, I have a BOP 400 (with 475 internals), a BOP-C 400, at least one BOP t350, a 200r4, a 4L60e, a 4L80e, a 700r4, a 'normal' turbo 400 (or maybe not), a bunch of turbo 350s... then there's the 6.2 diesel stuff....

        I digress.... I think we're talking the same thing just in different words. My original question (which I think the answer is "no") was whether or not there was a 700r4 or derivative that had the BOP bellhousing pattern...
        Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; July 16, 2020, 10:05 AM.
        Doing it all wrong since 1966

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        • #79
          I don't think the Series 1 or even all of the pre-series 1 stuff was BOP-C bell, a good chunk of it was already Metric60.

          Not that I'm aware of, however there are plenty of FWD 3.8L blocks with the Metric60 bells which like you point out work on the TH700R4 if you wanted to go that way. Even the low deck 3.0L FWD blocks if you wanted to get crazy on the internals. Best source for a Metric60 3.8L blocks would be late the late 80's FWD stuff, heads will work but you'd basically have to use the '89 Turbo Trans-Am stuff as it used the FWD heads to clear the F-body engine bay.
          Central TEXAS Sleeper
          USAF Physicist

          ROA# 9790

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          • #80
            okay, so where does the "Series" come into it relative to date? The 1961 and later stuff, the 1964 and later "even fire" with BOP bell, the Kaiser Jeep years, the re-introduction as the "odd-fire" in the 1975 or so, or the metric stuff when they started using it heavily in fwd cars, or the balance shaft years? hee hee.
            Last edited by Beagle; July 16, 2020, 01:01 PM.
            Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

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            • #81
              The line I've heard between the 231 and the 3.8L is the odd fire to even fire change approximately. The change to the "pre-series 1" stuff is the shift in bank offset to move the rods from being offset on the throws to being centered (known as off-center and on-center respectively) which happened in the late 80's. Balance shafts also came in with this change and it gets pretty nebulous between a "pre-series I" and a true series I. Series II is a pretty hard line as the deck height changed to shrink the motor overall. GM even labeled the badges as 3800 Series II. There is a Series III which was more evolutionary but the general distinction is some of the internals where improved (gradual phase in) and the engines (which by this point were all FWD) moved to throttle by wire and returnless fuel systems but the parts are largely cross compatible between Series II and III such as the later L32 rods going in the earlier L67 motors as an upgrade.
              Central TEXAS Sleeper
              USAF Physicist

              ROA# 9790

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              • #82
                Mid-1977 is when GM switched from the odd-fire crank to split pin even fire cranks. My Skylark originally had an odd-fire 231.
                Escaped on a technicality.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by CTX-SLPR View Post
                  I don't think the Series 1 or even all of the pre-series 1 stuff was BOP-C bell, a good chunk of it was already Metric60.

                  Not that I'm aware of, however there are plenty of FWD 3.8L blocks with the Metric60 bells which like you point out work on the TH700R4 if you wanted to go that way. Even the low deck 3.0L FWD blocks if you wanted to get crazy on the internals. Best source for a Metric60 3.8L blocks would be late the late 80's FWD stuff, heads will work but you'd basically have to use the '89 Turbo Trans-Am stuff as it used the FWD heads to clear the F-body engine bay.
                  would you like a picture, or would the pictures of the GN motor on Buinicorn's page be enough for you? 215 has its own pattern (and 300), 225 and 231 share their pattern with every other BOP motor out there, the Series II and Series III use the 2.8 pattern (as you refer as Metric60-which probably the right name but not how it's stored in my head)
                  Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; July 18, 2020, 09:58 AM.
                  Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Beagle View Post
                    okay, so where does the "Series" come into it relative to date? The 1961 and later stuff, the 1964 and later "even fire" with BOP bell, the Kaiser Jeep years, the re-introduction as the "odd-fire" in the 1975 or so, or the metric stuff when they started using it heavily in fwd cars, or the balance shaft years? hee hee.
                    metric started with the 2.8 Chevy motor.... the even fire is 'just' a different crank, externally, they look pretty much the same (outside of the distributor cap)
                    series came in with the post-GN motors... and those I'm learning about but still have a ways to go
                    there also isn't a difference between the front and rear wheel drive Series II and later motors (outside of accessory drive)

                    and the biggest problem with bolting a 2.8 700r4 behind a series motor is they are a weak-sauce 700r4 (4l60e).... which is why I'm adapting to the 4L80e rather then building a bulletproof 4L60e (which has a better 1st gear)
                    Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; July 18, 2020, 09:59 AM.
                    Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post

                      would you like a picture, or would the pictures of the GN motor on Buinicorn's page be enough for you? 215 has its own pattern (and 300), 225 and 231 share their pattern with every other BOP motor out there, the Series II and Series III use the 2.8 pattern (as you refer as Metric60)
                      from what my old timey books say, the pre 1964 v6's shared the 215/300 bell, and the 64 later until "metric" was BOP. I'd be okay with saying "Before Balance Shaft" and "After Balance Shaft" because that is an architectural difference, but doesn't matter that much to me. I'm not building anything that doesn't have room for a V8.
                      Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Beagle View Post

                        from what my old timey books say, the pre 1964 v6's shared the 215/300 bell, and the 64 later until "metric" was BOP. I'd be okay with saying "Before Balance Shaft" and "After Balance Shaft" because that is an architectural difference, but doesn't matter that much to me. I'm not building anything that doesn't have room for a V8.
                        I'm building a V6 because I love the look on a microsoftie's face when you suck the doors off their bonus-check lambo. With a V8 the line is "well, this is 'refined'" there is a retort but in a polite place like BS, Monster would frown.
                        Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post

                          would you like a picture, or would the pictures of the GN motor on Buinicorn's page be enough for you? 215 has its own pattern (and 300), 225 and 231 share their pattern with every other BOP motor out there, the Series II and Series III use the 2.8 pattern (as you refer as Metric60-which probably the right name but not how it's stored in my head)
                          https://www.gnttype.org/general/v6hist.html
                          1982
                          • M10x1.5 metric for accessory mounting holes on heads
                          • Boss on the rear of block for Knock Sensor
                          • Transverse FWD 3.0 V6 introduced in the Skylarkk (X body) with the FWD bolt pattern
                          1984
                          • New camshaft design with 0.030" larger base circle diameter
                          • 0.015" shorter push rods and 0.015" shorter lifters to accommodate base circle (8.703" vs. 8.718")
                          • Oil groove added to the block behind cam bearing #1 and oil groove removed from cam shaft from the cam shaft
                          • In mid-year, the 3.8 FWD V6 was added for the MFI Century T-Type
                          http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/107335.html

                          I can't find the build by TurboKenetic on TurboBuick.com but there was detailed pictures of his rebuild of a 84 Century converting it to Turbo which showed the Metric60 bellhousing on the transmission. My point is, you can go father back to get a 3.8L block without balance shaft but a Metric60 bell by raiding the FWD versions that Buick and others put out of the formerly fullsized cars like LeSabres, Electras, Park Avenues, Bonnevilles, and Rivieras as well as the top trim Centuries and Cutlasses.

                          Edit: I think I see the confusion, Buick (GM really) made multiple versions of the block with the same basic features but in the BOP-C and Metric60 bells. They also made the 3.0L with the same 3.8in bore but a lower deck height and I believe all of these were Metric60 bell.
                          Last edited by CTX-SLPR; July 21, 2020, 06:45 AM. Reason: Added Information
                          Central TEXAS Sleeper
                          USAF Physicist

                          ROA# 9790

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                          • #88
                            Everyone is playing with the 3800, even Richard Holdener



                            And more Carnage 3800

                            Tim
                            Melbourne Australia

                            65 Hardtop Impala, 70 GTS Monaro, 93 "80" Landcruiser

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                            • #89
                              Playing V6 again with Kevin

                              Tim
                              Melbourne Australia

                              65 Hardtop Impala, 70 GTS Monaro, 93 "80" Landcruiser

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                              • #90
                                I have a set of cast and alum. stage II heads and a couple odd ball nascar type manifolds???

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