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  • EPA & Engine Modifications

    SOMETHING TO WATCH !!!

    The Diesel Brother's just got Fined $850,000.00
    for "Modifying" pickup trucks by removing exhaust components, and instead installing "Chips" to enhance engine output.

    The Tree Huggers filed the lawsuit, not the government.
    Same thing happened to Harley Davidson for the dealer "Racer Chip" available options.

    ARE WE NEXT ????
    Dan Barlow likes this.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Captain View Post
    SOMETHING TO WATCH !!!

    The Diesel Brother's just got Fined $850,000.00
    for "Modifying" pickup trucks by removing exhaust components, and instead installing "Chips" to enhance engine output.

    The Tree Huggers filed the lawsuit, not the government.
    Same thing happened to Harley Davidson for the dealer "Racer Chip" available options.

    ARE WE NEXT ????
    I'd guess any new vehicle that got a new reflash/tune. .
    And tagged for public road use.
    No idea of your rules and laws.
    So, No real idea why they could do.
    But the diesel guys, Should've been knocked on their butts by the performance industry years ago., for the rolling coal garbage.
    That was like a big middle finger to the powers that be, and the envoi nuts.
    Guess they never heard the phase "speak softly, and carry a big stick" I think it is.
    Those guys openly posted video's of them doing it on public roads.
    I wondered why the industry it self didn't tell the diesel guys to knock it off. Some self policing. before the
    Dan Barlow and Captain like this.

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    • #3
      I went through the EPA's list of 2019 cases. They seem to have fallen into two categories:

      1. Somebody who imported a bunch of engines, or things with engines in them, that didn't have any emissions certificates.
      2. Products explicitly aimed at removing catalytic converters or diesel aftertreatment devices from production cars.

      Right now it looks as if the EPA's focus on aftermarket parts is on completely removing emissions devices, and specifically ones in the exhaust.

      And it seems one of the coal rollers took things straight to the EPA - intentionally tried to fog out a roadside monitoring setup they were running. Don't start a war without a plan to win it.
      Dan Barlow likes this.

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      • #4
        Really, the Agency doesn't want to go after individuals unless someone rubs their nose in it. What they want to do is shut down companies who are making a living by deliberately violating emissions systems. If you A) Stick to older vehicles and/or B) Quietly do your own stuff in your home shop - there is little chance of running amuck of the EPA. Technically they CAN come after individuals but they only have so many lawyers so they have to go for bang for the buck.

        Remember that State inspections and roadside testing (with very few exceptions) are state run programs. There's a tendency to think that every time anyone looks at emissions from your vehicle it's overreach by the Feds but the truth is that EPA has little to do with these programs other than to approve them as reasonable to achieve air quality goals.

        Dan
        Last edited by DanStokes; March 11th, 2020, 11:06 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Captain View Post
          ... ARE WE NEXT ????
          I'm not - my newest vehicle is a 1966 which is no longer required to pass smog in most locals!

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          • #6
            All ours still have cats . We may be missing an air pump or two though .
            Previously HoosierL98GTA

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            • #7
              Now that the EPA has dropped the whole "only flex fuel vehicles can run E85/E100" idea, what they do doesn't affect me much. No state inspection here, none in my home state either, but regardless my stuff doesn't even make the sniffer move, only Co2 and H2O come out of the pipe, and only a handful of my vehicles are newer than 1975. Who needs a cat when it all burns clean?

              The rolling coal types are annoying, it doesn't do us any favors in the hobby/profession. I remember before '75 when everything had black soot on it, the air was hazy even where I lived in BFE Nebraska, really don't want to go back to that. I don't run E85/E100 for the environment, that a bonus. My thing is inexpensive race quality fuel that allows me to run whatever compression ratio I want or can make with my engines, and make the fuel at home. Keeping the engine and fuel system clean is a bonus, the 13:1 daily driver with lots of power is my focus.
              Dan Barlow likes this.

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              • #8
                By the way EPA doesn't stop us from modifying our engines, but we have to play by the rules. Look at all the stuff available for Mustangs Corvettes and tuner cars that have ARB EO #s, which EPA sort of endorses. And as pointed out, pre 68 49 state vehicles are exempt as are pre 66 California cars (in California).

                And in some cases even newer vehicles with proper documentation can be modified. As an example, I had a 72 Vette that had a 69 Camaro engine (by the numbers) that had been installed pre 1990. I had documents that showed that to be true, altho not stated was what engine was used, only that it had been changed.

                What's so important about 1990 you ask? That's the last time Congress and a sitting president passed laws (not EPA) requiring emissions reductions. Any vehicle modifiedbefore that WITH documentation was grandfathered, meaning yes we can change things and even put a supercharged big block if we want into that 72 Vette. One restriction, keep the block older than 1990.

                As for the "Rolling Coal" guys, well lets just say that if you are blowing raw fuel or in this case partially combusted fuel out the exhaust,you are just wasting your money. In my experience we should want to burn the fuel in the most efficient manner, getting the most power or mileage or whatever your definition of efficiency is for the intended use. Think NASCAR where they want the most power to the wheels, but also want to make 3 more laps than anyone else on a tank of fuel. This could mean a win by strategy.

                Oh well, just the ramblings of some old guy who is getting senile...
                Dan Barlow likes this.

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                • #9
                  So glad you're here, Dave. I've been tellin' them this stuff but they don't believe me, probably 'cause I'm just a tech. Now there's TWO of us and one is an enginerd!

                  Dan

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                  • #10
                    Well you know me, I'm the guy that used to love driving either the Vette or the Mini to work with a tank full of leaded race gasoline so that the odor would get to everyone, just because I knew it was still legal on the street (until 1996...). No wonder I kept getting in trouble with management, I played by their rules and got away with it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Captain View Post
                      SOMETHING TO WATCH !!!

                      The Diesel Brother's just got Fined $850,000.00
                      for "Modifying" pickup trucks by removing exhaust components, and instead installing "Chips" to enhance engine output.

                      The Tree Huggers filed the lawsuit, not the government.
                      Same thing happened to Harley Davidson for the dealer "Racer Chip" available options.

                      ARE WE NEXT ????
                      Utah... they have tougher emission laws then California. I wouldn't read much into this, that said, it may cause the same situation like what moved Jessie James to Texas from California. All I know is with all the insanity of Washington State, we have some pretty reasonable laws regarding emissions...
                      Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                      • #12
                        Thank You for the information on pre 1990 engine blocks. Too bad we lost so many in the cash for clunkers scam to sell new cars to the American public.
                        My original post wasn't about the mentality of a Tar Plant Smoke Stack mods, but the amount of the fines, who started the lawsuit, how small was this market, and "Work was performed by a Non Manufacturer shop or DIY'r"
                        We have Friends of Kool Kars.........
                        and We still get the "Stink Eye" from some the
                        ​​​​​​Church Ladies crowd, the later have learned the way to torment anyone is thru Attorneys and the Courts

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DanStokes View Post
                          So glad you're here, Dave. I've been tellin' them this stuff but they don't believe me, probably 'cause I'm just a tech. Now there's TWO of us and one is an enginerd!

                          Dan
                          I want to get the most from my fuel, and I don't want to have to spend a lot of money on my fuel, thats why I decided to go for high compression, too high for pump gas by about 3 points, lots of cylinder pressure, torque monster engines, and then run it on s clean burning easy to produce fuel. I work that stuff hard in my engines and I get more power with less fuel burned, same mileage as I got on gasoline, sometimes better, and a lot more power.

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                          • #14
                            That Thumpin455 is the right attitude. When we look at the equation for efficiency in thermodynamics for the Otto or Diesel cycle efficiency is directly related to compression ratio. There is a theoretical max but like all things governed by the 2nd law it is unobtainable.

                            Ilike to describe the 2nd law of Thermodamnamics (sic) as its like going to Vegas. You as an individual might think you're coming out ahead, BUT the house always takes its cut! Dan and I were playing with a research engine at the EPA back in the 90's and we pretty much saw that time and again, even tho the manager that was directing the project kept saying thats not what he wanted go run it again until you get me the numbers I want.

                            Ah engineers that become managers. Now that's a bad combination...

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                            • #15
                              EPA (and GM when I worked there in the late '60s) was (were) really bad about taking great engineers and making them into really bad managers. While there are exceptions of course, engineers tend to be folks who like to grind thru a problem, get ALL the data available, beat that puppy into dust, get someone else to write the report (most engineers are poor writers and practically invented the run-on sentence), and when all that's done move on to the nest issue. Now what about the above says "good manager"? It's double sad as most of those folks are unhappy as bosses but that's how they get promotions.

                              Given that crap runs downhill it usually landed on us techs.

                              Dan

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