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Electric Cars cost more money and more time than gas cars

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  • Electric Cars cost more money and more time than gas cars

    Electric Vehicles and Their Drawbacks | RealClearEnergy

    Show this story to every person you know who thinks electric cars are the wave of the future...
    If you like saving money - drive a gas powered car.
    If you like sitting on your ass doing nothing - drive an electric car.
    Act your age, not your shoe size. - Prince

  • #2
    All I can add is "yep"! Range and recharge time will be an issue into the foreseeable future. There's some work being done on new generation batteries and super capacitors that may improve the situation but they're not ready for prime time.

    Dan

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    • #3
      If you want to be green - drive a hybrid that uses lead acid batteries we know how to recycle. If you don't want to pollute at all, use natural gas. The only thing coming out of the tailpipe is water vapor.
      Act your age, not your shoe size. - Prince

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      • #4
        It's arrogance - batteries were tried in the 20s, and for the exact same reasons, they continue not to be a solution. I just went to Idaho, saw the people in their Tesla's sitting at the recharge stations. Now let's calculate. I drove my 220k mile diesel Suburban 8 hours to cross 483 miles (including some major mountains). Didn't fill up once, but a Tesla would have been stopped at least twice (likely 3x) to cover the same distance.... that 3x would add 3 hours to their trip.... which is bad, but even worse - Snoqualmie Pass was a nightmare that simply got worse as time progressed. I hit it at the start of the traffic jam, I understand there are people who were there for 8 hours (instead of my mere 1 1/2 hours)... that makes the Tesla lose this race by at least 11 hours over 483 miles....
        Doing it all wrong since 1966

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        • #5
          The worst part of the new lithium ion batteries (Tesla, Chevy Volt, etc.) is no one has yet figured out how to recycle them. Those batteries weigh hundreds of pounds and are stacking up in warehouses (unless they caught on fire while still being driven). At least we know how to recycle lead acid batteries.

          Also - try to talk about this subject anywhere but a car forum, and you'll get a bunch of a-holes calling for the thread to be closed because "politics", when of course - it's not politics at all, it's "following the science".
          Last edited by studemax; January 3, 2021, 03:01 PM.
          Act your age, not your shoe size. - Prince

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          • #6
            I've known this for a while now, and its why I do the ethanol thing,. Its even less expensive than gasoline when I make the stuff with tree sap or cattails. I get more power too...CNG is good, but it costs a lot to compress it into liquid so you can get enough to go anywhere. Looked into that too, because methane is stupid easy to produce.

            I like the power of electric motors, haven't flown a glow fueled RC plane in a very long time, because the electrics are a lot easier, faster, and there is no goo to clean up. My brother went electric with his RC planes and cars because his wife breaks out into hives when she is exposed to glow fuel.

            The range and cost of electric vehicles is what is what is keeping me from getting into them, it sure as hell isn't performance. I can make electricity even easier and cheaper than ethanol, which is why I have been working on various green/cheap energy generators to power the stills. I kinda want a Prius to use as a power station, big battery, two power units, generator to charge things, but I'd never be caught dead driving one of those ugly appliances. I am not attracted to other men enough for that.

            Now there is something on the horizon that could be used as a room temp superconductor, battery storage that charges VERY fast with minimal heat, they can be made very light, and holds a charge longer than the various other batteries around right now. You can get cellphone batteries made of the stuff now. Its called graphene, but production is very limited and the length of the stuff is very short, so they print it kinda like circuit boards. They can make it with CO2, releasing the O2 and taking the carbon and using it for fun stuff.

            Replacing copper and all the other related things needed for electric motors with that stuff would be a huge step forward. We are a long way from having graphene motors and batteries powering cars that can recharge from wind resistance and solar radiation, but hey, its possible.

            Until it becomes reality, it is very high compression V8s with home made vodka for me. Even after the stuff or something else even better is dirt cheap and easily available, I will probably still do the 13:1 + V8 thing. I just love these old dinosaurs. I like going fast for cheap, so if electric ever becomes cheap I will probably build something to scare myself with electric power. I don't see that happening any time soon. Sounds like they want us not to live in the boonies anymore, and be forced to use public transportation... among other things I will not abide.

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            • #7
              My problem with ethanol is while it burns clean, making the fuel actually dirties up 10 gallons of clean water for every gallon of ethanol produced. Distilling the ethanol is not a green method. Also, I don't like that gubmint programs support the ethanol industry financially. If it's not a good deal in the market, leave the ethanol and methanol for racing fuels.
              Act your age, not your shoe size. - Prince

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              • #8
                interesting stuff.

                My hybrid has NiMH batteries, which can be recycled, and if done right it recovers significant rare earth metals.

                It's 17 years old with 83k miles, and had the battery replaced twice already...most recently 7 years ago. I expect it to die at any time. A rebuilt one will cost more than half of the current resale value of the car.


                but it averages close to 45 mpg....so the fuel cost is pretty similar to modern electric cars, per mile.

                My fabulous web page

                "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by studemax View Post
                  The worst part of the new lithium ion batteries (Tesla, Chevy Volt, etc.) is no one has yet figured out how to recycle them. Those batteries weigh hundreds of pounds and are stacking up in warehouses (unless they caught on fire while still being driven). At least we know how to recycle lead acid batteries.

                  Also - try to talk about this subject anywhere but a car forum, and you'll get a bunch of a-holes calling for the thread to be closed because "politics", when of course - it's not politics at all, it's "following the science".
                  sadly, science has become political (and religion too). Ah well, not this thread.

                  there are lots of reasons why battery powered vehicles don't make sense, which, of course pretty much guarantees there is going to be a personal attack that comes next from the one who feels like they're losing the argument... way of the world, I guess.

                  honestly, I think few actually care - but many want to appear they care and the difference in the numbers is where the problems arise because the ones that want to appear to care tend to be headline arguers....

                  Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by studemax View Post
                    If you want to be green - drive a hybrid that uses lead acid batteries we know how to recycle. If you don't want to pollute at all, use natural gas. The only thing coming out of the tailpipe is water vapor.
                    Hydrogen fuel cell cars do the same thing, H2O as the byproduct... but pretty much zero infrastructure and I can't help but think about this every time somebody brings up "fuel cell"

                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Hindenburg_disaster.jpg Views:	0 Size:	89.8 KB ID:	1285663
                    Last edited by Beagle; January 4, 2021, 01:05 PM.
                    Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

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                    • #11
                      ^^^ THAT ^^^ was a totally different thing. Static electricity charge building up on the surface, and the paint was literally made of rocket fuel. It was an accident waiting to happen.
                      Act your age, not your shoe size. - Prince

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by studemax View Post
                        ^^^ THAT ^^^ was a totally different thing. Static electricity charge building up on the surface, and the paint was literally made of rocket fuel. It was an accident waiting to happen.
                        Don't paint your baloon with this junk?

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	s-l300.jpg Views:	0 Size:	14.1 KB ID:	1285669

                        Well, there is the other Hydrogen powered image that pops into my mind.

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	Tsar-pic-3.jpg Views:	0 Size:	27.0 KB ID:	1285667

                        Really though, I'm blaming James Bond movies for my fear of Hydrogen cells.
                        Last edited by Beagle; January 4, 2021, 03:01 PM.
                        Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

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                        • #13
                          Hydrogen wasn't the problem with the Hindenburg. It was the dope for the cloth covering made of aluminum powder and resin that started the fire (the orange flames) thanks to static discharge. That set the hydrogen ablaze (the blue flame). It didn't explode - it burned.
                          Act your age, not your shoe size. - Prince

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by studemax View Post
                            My problem with ethanol is while it burns clean, making the fuel actually dirties up 10 gallons of clean water for every gallon of ethanol produced. Distilling the ethanol is not a green method. Also, I don't like that gubmint programs support the ethanol industry financially. If it's not a good deal in the market, leave the ethanol and methanol for racing fuels.
                            While yes you use ten gallons of water to make one or two gallons of ethanol, depending on the yeast used, you are not causing harm to the water in doing so. This is a typical argument sorta like a red herring, its true but nowhere near as bad as they make it sound. You need the rest of the information too. Its not unlike taking someone out of context, and claiming they said something when you cut half the words out of their statement.

                            You can actually drink what is left over, though it usually does not taste nor smell good. In a batch system such as I use, a lot of the water used in the previous run can be reused again, it helps the yeast get started again. You can distill the water out and leave nothing but the solids if you like, if there are solids, and then you can feed that to livestock.. and by livestock I mean everything from earthworms to cattle, and even people, depending on what the source of sugar or starch was. Earthworms are massively beneficial if you feed your leftovers to them, gotta be careful because they will make so much heat in their beds they cook themselves. The castings (worm poop) is an amazingly good fertilizer, highly sought after, and you can actually make a lot more money selling the castings than you can selling fuel.

                            In the continuous systems used in large ethanol plants, they reclaim as much of the water as possible, because it cuts down the cost of making fuel Especially when its in the middle of nowhere like Nebraska or Iowa with no rivers nearby. There is no need to treat the water like you must with the water used in oil production, such as in pipelines. They put water between the loads of oil because it doesn't mix and you can use water to push it though, kinda cool really, but it fouls the water doing it. Then you have the slag pits from the tar sands, and the water pumped into the ground to offset fracking, so its not like gasoline/diesel/kerosene production is easy on water.

                            I am inclined to agree about the government getting involved, tax credits/breaks, various funding, etc. The problem with taking it all away is gasoline and diesel prices would go through the roof, even now despite the fact we are producing a lot more than we are importing. The tax credits and breaks given to oil companies dwarf all of the money thrown at green energy. Once again, you need to know the rest of the story, not just the part they want you to focus on so you ignore the elephant in the room. Producing oil is stupid expensive, its labor intensive and you use roughly a gallon of oil to refine a gallon, without the tax breaks and other not so visible money being thrown at it by the government, we would be having gas prices more like Europe, but not because of taxes on it. If they didn't have the government giving them breaks, we would end up paying even more at the pump, and I sure as hell don't want that. I still run gasoline here, because E85 is two hours away and I don't have enough production capacity to fuel everything at this point. Maybe I will soon, hard to say. I want to sell this land and move back to Nebraska, more racing there. None here.

                            Its not exactly apples to oranges comparing ethanol and gasoline, be it money, power, the environment, or whatever. Most of the information bandied about is pushing some narrative. With the massive infrastructure put in place starting back in 1919 with the Volstead Act, which prohibited ethanol production within the US and left Standard Oil as the only fuel left long before it was repealed in 1933, oil has a massive advantage. Then you have the propaganda around it, as evidenced by many of the things I have addressed here over the years, food vs fuel, indirect land use, BTU content, supposed corrosion, funding/incentives, and the really humorous ones that claim it doesn't make more power and can't handle more compression and timing, and its an uphill battle. People get a little bit of info, and assume that is all there is to it. Hello Dunning Krueger, table of one?

                            So how does one go about getting people to invest in something they are told at every turn is absolutely horrible? Give them an incentive.

                            Also the corn lobby has been going for the volume of using ethanol as an octane enhancer. They sell more from the volume of mixing it with gasoline so the gasoline doesn't spark knock like crazy. Not a fan of them either, they don't want us making it from anything else, just corn, and I can understand that as well. Gotta do something with all that yellow stuff we produce, and we can't feed it directly to cattle. Make fuel from it first, then you can feed that directly to cattle and they grow faster and are healthier from it. Food and fuel.. fun times.

                            Everyone is trying to protect their business, wanting money from the government tit, and they all try to gain market share from others, while not losing any. They follow what they are invested in, and also what they are emotional about.

                            Its why some people are all about making us all drive electrics, and they have no clue what is behind building electric vehicles. Sure if we can make solar more efficient than its current 20% give or take (its been a while since I looked at it) then sure, in urban areas we could use mostly electric vehicles provided you don't have to drive overly far... but then you still have all the problems of what to do with the dead batteries and fires from corrosion. Sure if we built lightweight engines with 22:1 compression and ran them with heated straight ethanol, we could increase the efficiency a lot making more power from smaller engines too, but can we produce enough ethanol to run everything? It depends on how efficient we can make them, and how efficient the car companies will allow them to be. They won't run on gasoline at all like that, hydrogen and methane are a good alt fuel, except for the range problem and we are back to the same problem as with electric cars. I've already beaten gasoline for mileage with just 13:1, was pretty easy to do really.

                            Ya know what REALLY irks the hell out of me about all of this? How a certain group of people pushes their jacked up ideology as the solution to all of it. They hijack everything green and justify forcing their politics upon everyone, knowing that we can't use it all until we get solar over 50%, and can make ethanol from cellulose. We can't make enough yet, even if we can get 60mpg, its a lot of engines moving around, a mind numbing number. They want it all to crash so they can impose their ideology on all of us, and as far as I know, none of us want to live in that kind of world. The people who sensibly push back against them then see what I am doing as the same crap those idiots are trying to do. We still need to mine the quartz for solar panels, copper for everything electric, and it just gets uglier from there.

                            I just want to make power with dirt cheap fuel, and I share what I find with others so they can make ludicrous power using dirt cheap fuel too. If we can make it ourselves, why would we care what they set for the price of gasoline? They control the production of gasoline and diesel, so they can set the prices. If I can make something without their input, then I do not have to pay them and I can put that money towards things I want more, like engine parts, tires, paint, etc. I want politics out of it, but damn those pricks are dead set on making everything political.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post

                              sadly, science has become political (and religion too). Ah well, not this thread.

                              there are lots of reasons why battery powered vehicles don't make sense, which, of course pretty much guarantees there is going to be a personal attack that comes next from the one who feels like they're losing the argument... way of the world, I guess.

                              honestly, I think few actually care - but many want to appear they care and the difference in the numbers is where the problems arise because the ones that want to appear to care tend to be headline arguers....
                              You're on to something there. I don't like to argue, I like to explain and provide information. Getting accurate information is a bit of an obsession for me. Some people are emotionally invested in things, they can't handle it if they might be wrong or someone disagrees with them. I am wrong all the damn time, but some things I know I am not wrong, yet I know there is so much more I need to find out. Car guys tend to be like us, always curious, problem solving, wanting correct information, because bad info breaks parts.

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