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  • The Famous Drippy Car Project

    Dave G and I kicked this around and thought it might be worth a thread - kind of a joint project. And yes, there may have been some joints involved. He thinks he has some pics so hopefully we can add graphics as it goes along.

    This thread will be about a stupid waste of taxpayer dollars. In support of the EPA I have to mention that for the most part we pinched every nickle until the buffalo hollered but sadly this is an actual example of government waste and those of us doing the work had no ability to stop it.

    So the engineering challenge: You expend a fairly large amount of energy to accelerate the mass (the weight of the car) to cruising speed and not much energy to maintain that speed. Then to decelerate the mass you turn the kinetic energy into wasted heat thru the braking system. The goal of hybrid vehicles is to use wheel motors to do most of the stopping by activating the wheel motors as generators so that waste heat is reduced and, in this case, turned into electrical energy which is stored and used the next time the mass needs accelerated. So far so good. (I'm leaving out the part of the extreme level of resources to build the darn thing in the first place, battery disposal, and 100 other drawbacks - just saying this is the concept)

    Now comes the government waste part. Some Knucklehead who shall remain nameless (anyone can sue for anything) who had the power to get government money allocated decided that the same process described above could be accomplished with hydraulic storage and recovery. So....an IC (internal combustion engine) with hydraulic energy recovery. Thru a string of poor decisions and bad luck Dave G, a young engineer named Paul B (again, I don't have permission to use his name) and I were among the otherwise honorable people who got delegated at to work on this mess. I remember the 3 of us sitting around our newly-assigned test cell that first day after the kickoff meeting discussing how this would never work and for 3 specific reasons:
    1) Safety. The proposal was to send the American public out on the roads with enough hydraulic pressure to cut their vehicles in two. What could go wrong?
    2) Weight. Comes from 1 above. Enough shielding to make this thing safe meant that the mass would be more or less unmovable.
    3) Cost. The only way to alleviate 1 & 2 was cubic money (carbon fiber, titanium, etc.) Ain't gonna happen

    The part Dave, Paul, and I were assigned was to come up with some bizarre form of IC engine to make the thing work. We were given some cast-off VW experimental engines that the Knucklehead was convinced could be made to run on neat (100%) methanol. I'll let Dave tell that story 'cause I was just the lowly tech in that work.

    Along with this, a chassis was needed to bolt all this mess onto. Here Dave's buddy Jim was brought in as an outside contractor to whip up a couple of chassis to which almost anything could be bolted allowing for quick changes of pumps, pressure vessels and so on so that innumerable failed ideas could be attached. I'm hoping Dave has a pic of the chassis which looked sort of like a military-grade dune buggy.

    This project drug on for - what - a decade with really sharp engineers and techs spinning their wheels in hydraulic oil. Dave quit and went to the State of New York, I was reassigned to a project adding aftertreatment to Diesel engines (that one actually worked) but still the project ground on. Maybe it's still going though I doubt it now that the Knucklehead has also retired. I don't really want to know.

    So Dave - over to you.........
    Last edited by DanStokes; May 25, 2022, 11:58 AM.

  • #2
    I have pictures, but need to scan them and transfer them to my tablet. So for tonight, I'll just add a little bit of the story. Dan has forgotten one key fact; i was the 2nd staff engineer on the project, along with another engineer, Mike S, who was a really good computer jockey, but wasn't experienced in hardware. I unfortunately have both hands-on hydraulics experience and engineering design experience. More on that in later posts.

    The influential person, let's call him Big B, for big boss, big bas...., whatever you want to make the second half of the name, knew this from when I was hired, as he remembered my resume. Millwright 10 years, followed by a stint at a research firm out of college. That 2nd job, breaking stuff for a living, was where I learned about servo-control hydraulics, designing devices like earthquake simulation machines, and 4-point bending machinery that in one case could generate 3.5 million, YES millionforce, pounds force per ram, 2 of them, to break BIG pipe. For anyone familiar with nuclear reactors, we were experimenting on 42 inch diameter cold leg pipe amongst others. This stuff has a 3.5 inch wall thickness. Not easy to break... As my mentor backhandedly complimented me, I was too stupid to know I couldn't do these odd tasks I was assigned.

    So getting back to the drippy car, the first task that the 2 idiot engineers and one senior tech, Jim M (like Dan said, we don't have permission to use their full names), had to try to figure out what a vehicle sized like a current Ford Taurus could do if the energy from a gallon of gasoline. The 3 of us had to come up with an average mpg number. The other engineer, Mike, was modelling the car in the program he wrote, and initially came up with 123 or so mpg.

    Jim, who had years of experience working on Big Bs projects and I knew that if we told Big B that number, it would be the target, and also so unobtainable that we'd be f###ed. So we sat in Mike's cubicle and rehashed stuff that in the end lead to 79.5 mpg. Big B rounded up to 80. That was our target. This was early 92, before anyone knew what we were up to. I had been pulled off of 6 or 7 programs that had been mandated in the Clean Air Act Ammendments of 1990. Needless to say I was not too enthusiastic about it!

    In parallel to that effort, Jim and I were investigating and purchasing bent axis hydraulic pump-motors from around the world. The best and most expensive came from Australia, at the time $5-$6 thousand each. We bought 6! And similar quantities of them from 8 or 9 other companies.

    So we'll leave off here until I scan some pictures for you to see "Rise of the Drippy Car"
    Last edited by dave.g.in.gansevoort; May 25, 2022, 05:02 PM.

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    • #3
      Don't Raise the Bridge.......
      ​​​​ Lower the River.........

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      • #4
        Sounds interesting...
        ...

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        • #5
          We did some weird shit. I actually didn't know the background Dave just provided above as I came into the project on the day of the kickoff meeting (or I've forgotten it which is also possible).
          Last edited by DanStokes; May 26, 2022, 06:39 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DanStokes View Post
            We did some weird shit. I actually didn't know the background Dave just provided above as I came into the project on the day of the kickoff meeting (or I've forgotten it which is also possible).
            Mike, Jim and I were involved with the project about a year before the kickoff meeting, and another almost big brass and the BIG B had actually started quite a bit earlier, getting the contract for the engine with that European company that supplied us with the 2 cylinder engine and those electronic controls that were way too expensive and much too unreliable. Dan and Paul hated those electronic controls. Me, I don't know anything about electronics, but I can tell when something has burned up. They'd both pick on me about it, but when Paul diagnosed the problem, he'd usually discover that the component I had pointed out was the one that failed.

            I dug out a bunch of pictures this morning, now I have to scan them. And as you all can surmise, I'm not too good with computers. So it's going to be a little while before I post them. Oh well, you get what you pay for...

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            • #7
              Got some photos scanned this am. Wasn't too hard to accomplish. So where to start???
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ID:	1319647 How about here, Dan? This is our engineering team for the 2-cylinder combined cycle, methanol-fueled POS research engine. Dan's second from right, I'm behind the camera (plausible deniability...). Dan, you're going to have to fill in the names, I'm having a senior moment and can't for the life of me remember their names.

              That's a Superflow Dyno that Dan took apart brand new and altered the rotor to lower the power absorption capability. After all, the best that the POS research engine made for power was 12 horsepower after Jim M. and I had replaced a couple of bent rods (funny story about that, maybe later...), and I had done some sums and cyphers and redesigned the inlet manifold and exhaust manifold, using Helmholz (spelling?) resonance theory to determine optimal lengths for the expected power band, which was only about 500 rpm between peak torque and max hp.

              And the dyno "room" was an unused bay in a part of the building that had been an outside door, but some genious had extended the building and had done the British thing, having roof low points come together, and try to drain rain water with undersized scuppers. When it rained, the water cascaded down what had been an outside wall (mostly) and found its way into the room AND the electronics. Not good!

              Dan came up witha workable solution, an RV awning just over the garage door. It just meant we had to always make sure the electronics were under the awning far enough to not get wet. That solution was cheap, which was good, because the Big B hated using HIS money on anything to help the technical staff. We could buy really weird stuff for the engines, chassis, hydraulics, etc, but for the building?

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ID:	1319649 Not great pictures, but they are of the first Drippy chassis, proof of concept vehicle. Jim M and I built this, what you say an engineer getting his hands dirty? Yes, because I was the only one in the building at that point that had played with high pressure hydraulics, both as a mechanic and as an engineer. And some of that experience came from the previous position at a research firm blowing stuff up. One test setup required internal pressures to 160,000+ psi. Our head of Personnel, Tom H, interviewed me before we gained approval to power up the hydraulics, and after he had checked me out always said he trusted me working on the systems. In fact he said if he saw merunning, he was going to try to pass me, just in case...

              What we had there was a Ford Ranger 2wd chassis, with a large 1-inch thick aluminum tooling plate bolted to the front. This gave a really good platform to bolt stuff down to, that we knew was straigh and flat. Minimized setup time for drives and the like. We were changing parts out frequently, as new pump/motors arrived. And as the 2-cylinder engines hadn't been made to run much yet, we used a Subaru Justy 3-cylinder engine and cvt transmission for the bulk of the drivetrain. We bought the engine used, but the transmission was brand new in the crate. The only problem was, it was front wheel drive. We needed a driveshaft to the rear axle. So Jim M called a friend in a foreign car salvage yard near us and got a slightly used 4wd Justy cvt. Jim M and I took both apart and swapped the necessary parts around until we had a working 4wd cvt. By the way, the only difference turns out is a second geartrain off the back side of the fwd ring gear, and the case it all rides in. Problem solved!

              Now proof of concept stuff is always fraught with fubars, such as looking like a motorboat with a high plume behind it, except it was DTE 24/ISO 32 hydraulic oil! Oops! It seems we had a low pressure return line perfectly lined up with the filler cap, but forgot to replace the cap on the first outside test run. This was oil being pumped out of a 1-inch hose in 100s of gallons per minute, straight up, right behind yours truly. Everyone watching was trying to get my attention to stop, but as I was headed away, and was fiddling with the electronics to make it go (about 30-35 mph...) well, we used about 300 pounds of speedy dry that afternoon.

              So we proved that we could make hydraulics work, but that vehicle was anything but sophisticated. Big B asked me if I could design a chassis that would more closely simulate a Taurus with the body removed. Uh, well, uh, maybe, uh, okay, uh... You get the picture. This is where my friend and racing mentor/chassis builder/fabricator par excellence came to mind. A phone call later and I was at my drawing board laying down some basic dimensional requirements, running some sums and cyphers to determine what materials to specify, and specing out parts for suspension and drivetrain that Jimwould need to procure for us.

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ID:	1319650 Now in case you are wondering about his talent, here's the hillclimb special Jim built around the same time. And yes I had some input into the design. What you are looking at is an 80s sprint car chassis, but not a sprint car
              You see Jim knew that to have a chance on the Mt. Washington hill climb, it would take sophisticated suspension. This beast had independent suspension front and rear, all designed by Jim. I just looked at sizing of stuff for him to ensure adequate strength. After all at some points on the mountain, if you go off course, it's about 2000 feet down before you run into anything that will stop you. Something NOT to be experienced if possible! It also had a couple of 400 cid small blocks I turned wrenches on. One unique feature Jim incorporated was a Powerglide with an almost stock stall speed torque converter. It's not drag racing, the launch is not too improtant. The shifter was right by his left hand to click up and down easily, manual valve body. That wing, custom made to have even side boards, as turns are both directions. Oh and hydraulic cylinders connected to a control system operated witht the left foot rocking the brake pedal pad side to side to change the angle of attack for straight line or cornering. So yes he was qualified for the job.

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ID:	1319656 So the pictures are not professional quality. They were good enough to show progress. It's a basic platform made from 2x3 rectangular tube, with spaces for the accumulators to be set low. The front and rear suspension is aftermarket coilover struts custom made to fit Ford Taurus front suspension components. We used them both front and rear. Makes it easy to hook up drivetrains to either end. I had specced a quick change center section for the rear, and Jim had Stock Car Products make up the units used. When all was said and done, and the chassis were made presentable (Paint, good tires, etc) Jim charged $15,500 for the chassis.

              I think that's enough for today. Dan it's your turn to fill in some details...

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              • #8
                You have no idea of how much of this I've successfully blocked from my memory banks leaving room for things like LSR rules and the like. Let me chew on it and I'll get back to y'all.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by DanStokes View Post
                  You have no idea of how much of this I've successfully blocked from my memory banks leaving room for things like LSR rules and the like. Let me chew on it and I'll get back to y'all.
                  A mind is a terrible thing to... wait, what was I saying???

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                  • #10
                    I'm still looking for more pictures, however some of the details have flitted across my mind. For instance, one of the young engineers had a number of years experience becoming a machinist for another federal agency, the exact one I cannot talk about. But she was putting herself thru college at the same time. And graduated summa cum laude. As was typical for EPA, her management didn't know what to do with her. So I became her mentor. I refuse to call what I did with young engineers management, because by that time we had "team leaders", which I'll leave to Dan to write about that fiasco...

                    I was very impressed with Bev, as 1-she was sharp technically, 2-knew her way around a tool box, and 3-was one of the few people that our head machinist allowed to use the machinery after he checked her out on each of the machines. Dan can tell whole chapters about Lennie, suffice it to say here, he didn't suffer fools...

                    So where am I going? Oh yes, modifying a bent axis hydraulic pump-motor to be able to go over center. If you haven't seen how a bent axis hydraulic pump-motor works, let's just say here, it's FM! But the important thing to know is that when the axis is in line, the speed of the unit goes to infinity and beyond (theoretically ). So what that means is that they don't make any that do that on purpose. However, if you have an external system to control the speed, it can be a useful function to be able to go from motoring to absorbing, i.e. energy recovery mode.

                    So we decided between the 2 of us that we could make it work. We took a unit apart, Bev did some mill work on the internal stops, and then we reassembled it. It went into the hydraulic pump-motor test cell (remember Dan, Vince C's dyno room?), and we did some tests. All this without telling the Big B anything about it. Vince hooked it all up to the hydraulic pressure system, which had accumulators, servo-control valves and a hydraulic pump unit capable of 3000 psi.

                    And early on, I had specced out what size plumbing we were going to need for adequate flow rates with minimal restrictions, which was high pressure hose and plumbing with a minimum 1 inch inside diameter.

                    Things were going quite swimmingly! Then we lost control for one reason or another. And we were just going over center. Remember that I mentioned 1 inch id plumbing? Well we filled Vince's whole system with lots of little parts. That pump-motor went from a couple thousand rpm one direction, and in fractions of a second we think it went to over 6000 rpm the other way . And when it did, those little tiny piston/rod assemblies and a whole slew of other stuff dynamically disassembled themselves. And with an accumulator at 3000 psi, fully charged, 10 gallons of DTE24/ISO 32 of oil and a servo-control valve that's not going to function ever again, well stuff got flushed thru the entire system.

                    The good news? The Big B wasn't upset! One thing I learned about him was that he actually appreciated initiative. And when Bev and I explained the concept, he gave the go ahead to try again, however we had to develop a plan that included contingencies that would minimize the potential to repeat the first experiment.

                    When I left to move to NY, they were still experimenting with the concept. Dan may remember if it ever worked out...

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                    • #11
                      Nope, no memory of that. By then I was stuffing aftertreatment bricks (think catalytic converter innards) into our custom made cans and attaching them to one of several Cummins ISB test engines for evaluation. I occasionally walked thru that area of the building to borrow something (they had funding and we were operating on handouts) but I did my best to disassociate myself from that insanity.

                      As far as Lennie - he was an amazing machinist and welder and I still have a couple of his TIG welds on my rollbar in the Mustang. He could be the nicest of guys but he had issues dating from his childhood and made worse in Viet Nam so yes he could be tough to get along with. The fact that he was OK with Bev was always a surprise to all of us who knew him but evidently she was THAT good. I hope she did well in her life but Lennie died shortly after retirement. I have Lennie stories. BTW, Lennie's job title was "Modelmaker". That allowed him to be paid more in line with his skills.

                      Dave has the REAL stories on this project as well as the pics.

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                      • #12
                        Yes Lennie was unique. As I recall, he only tolerated 3 engineers during all his years as model maker (I'm surprised that I forgot his official title). Bev and I were 2 of those engineers. The 3rd left to go to work at Ford. Again his name is up to Dan, as he and I never met.

                        A fun story. I needed to make a widget (engineering term...), and went in to see if Lennie was willing to do most of the work on it. Instead he said that he would be glad to help me build it. After the 2nd attempt, he said that he was going to do a little bit of the next attempt. When I went back to the shop the next morning, there was a finished product, a lot different from what I was trying to figure out how to make. Of course it worked, but more importantly it looked like a piece of art.

                        I made sure the Big B knew that Lennie had made it, and probably stayed late to get it finished for me by the next morning.

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                        • #13
                          I think it's interesting that, with this bunch, nobody had to ask why it was called "The Drippy Car". Out there in the general public that would need an explanation.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DanStokes View Post
                            I think it's interesting that, with this bunch, nobody had to ask why it was called "The Drippy Car". Out there in the general public that would need an explanation.
                            My assumption is it marked it's territory?
                            http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...-consolidation
                            1.54, 7.31 @ 94.14, 11.43 @ 118.95

                            PB 60' 1.49
                            ​​​​​​

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Russell View Post

                              My assumption is it marked it's territory?
                              At unprecedented levels. We became friendly with the sales folks at New Pig (Google it).

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