You know you're growing up when...

[dave.g.in.gansevoort]

Per the title, I have realized that I am not of the current generation as I have been watching a bunch of the stuff that Motor Trend tv puts on since SWMBO has been in the rehabilitation center while her ankle injury heals. She doesn't care for most of those shows, prefering to watch, of all things, the Hallmark channels! So I've been binging on Roadkill and Roadkill Garage, Iron Reserrection, Faster with Finnigan, and on and on...

And I have to ask, is it me? I don't see the reason for burnouts for the sake of the burnouts. Heating the tires at a dragstrip, that I understand. Sitting and burning down the tires until they blow out, that I don't understand.

Another thing, Freiburger, Finnigan, et al in those shows, get a pos out of a junkyard, get it running, and road trip it, that I understand. Road tripping before doing the maintenance that they do out on the road, nope! How much more enjoyable would it be to fix the dodgy stuff, even if it means one more day in the garage, rather than spending probably twice as much time out on the road doing those repairs?

So I reiterate, I know that I'm finally growing up...

[dave.g.in.gansevoort]

Another oddity to try to get my head around. Rolling coal! Now I'm not going to preach environment about it, as that would be hypocritical of me. After all I like high performance engines of all ilks. And I like to define efficiency for my taste as getting the most power out of the fuel that is going thru an engine, Otto cycle or Diesel cycle. I've messed with alcohol for performance since the 60s when I raced modified class snowmobiles running methanol for fuel. There's a smell associated with methanol that I can smell just sitting here while I write this. By the way, too much exposure to alcohol fuels can sensitize you to it, for me triggering migraines. As Dan can tell you, in days past when lacquer paint was thinned out with methanol, many painters became alcoholics, as the "cure" for methanol poisoning is ethanol. So why go to the doctor ewhen you can just drink a bit after a day in the spray booth?

Back to the topic, rolling coal. That black sooty stuff coming out of the stack(s), that's unburned diesel fuel. A little bit of engine theory. Very little. Fuel burning requires oxygen to combust. And the optimal air fuel ratio for a fuel is called stoichiometry. Stoich for short. Back to the 2 types of combustion. In an Otto cycle engine, running theoretical gasoline, the theoretically correct air fuel ratio is approximately 14.7:1 in air. The nitrogen should just pass through, but a little bit of it forms compounds during combustion, however they are not part of the combustion process, just a result of.

Diesel cycle engines however range from close to stoich at max torque to upwards 200:1 at no load idle conditions. However the actual point of combustion, where the fuel droplets and air are combining, and the combustion process is occurring is almost exactly at stoich. It's a hard concept to get your head around. Think about it like this: the fuel droplet is a basket ball when combustion initiates and there's a zone like earths atmosphere where vaporized fuel and oxygen are mixed at that just right ratio for combustion. As the process continues, the droplets are getting smaller and smaller in diameter at that sweet spot, going from basketball size to softball size to golf ball size, to airsoft pellet size, eventually getting to the point where the fire goes out. Then you get the leftover carbon becoming soot, i.e. rolling coal. And the more of that you can see, the earlier that the fire is going out. That soot still has hydrogen attached to it, and could be further combusted. And diesel fuel, like all petroleum fuels is now sold based on energy content. That's why gasoline base stock is cheaper than diesel base stock. It's made up of lighter hydrocarbons. The heavier hydrocarbons have higher energy content like the paraffins, which are a major component of diesel, but not of gasoline.

So personally I prefer to get the most power out of the fuel used, making the engine more efficient, which regardless of whether you want to get the most miles per mass of fuel used or the most power to the drive wheels, i.e. a quicker vehicle, is the definition of efficiency. Getting the most power out of the fuel used. Rolling coal is probably not it! Diesel engines typically are 40 to 45 percent efficient in getting the fuels potential energy into shaft power, whereas an Otto cycle engine is typically in the 30s to 35 percent efficient. And yes this is directly due to the compression ratio of the engine. The remaining potential energy leaves the engine thru multiple paths as heat energy. So tubocharging is a way to recoup some of that energy, but let's not muddy the discussion here .

So how much energy is being lost out of the exhaust when rolling coal? I've never run a diesel purposely in that condition and measured the power and fuel consumption. I did have a Cummins Big Cam diesel on the dyno years ago that was so over fueled due to the wrong fuel pump calibration, that the exhaust smoke overpowered the scrubbers on our dyno cell exhaust system, making it look like the building was on fire. The 350 horsepower rated engine was supposed to put out 400 horsepower, however it could only do 385 or there about in that over fueled condition. When we got the correct calibration fuel pump, the engine miraculously put out 405 or so horsepower and was back to the pm levels for its model year.

So what is the purpose of the rant? I just don't understand purposely missfuelling a diesel just to make smoke. And waste money. Oh, and engine life will be drastically reduced due to fuel washing of the cylinders amongst other things...

[Loren]

Why can't you just try to be more fun?







J/K, agree w/ all and interesting comment.

[SuperBuickGuy]

I hear you, but.

I've watched a lot of tractor pulling contests and all the diesels roll coal. IF it was slowing them down they wouldn't be blowing black smoke.

Sure, efficiency is one thing, but it's not necessarily the only thing... further, funny thing. I've had a lot of diesels - ALL of the older diesels get better fuel economy then the new ones. As I get older, I find it harder and harder to listen to the Duramax/Cummins/Ford (what is their flavor today?) owners who proclaim fuel economy that will cause them (when they die) to wake up in hell - and God saying "you just couldn't tell the truth on the stupid things"

But I digress. the old rigs do blow some black smoke... and it's not the end of the world. Sorry, no penguins or polar bears were hurt in the blowing of that smoke....

and to your other point about "worth it" .... to who? who made you god to determine what was fun or not fun in the world*. You have an opinion, great, take your $10 opinion and try to find yourself a cup of coffee....


* and migraines. I have one today, get them at least once a week.... I have cats on my FJ40 so I can drive it. So I get hurting, but I don't get getting worked up of "stuff you can't change"...

[dave.g.in.gansevoort]

Why, they used to call me mushroom back in Ann Arbor, because I was such a fungi!

Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing about the environmental impact, that would be hypocritical. After all, when I was living in Ann Arbor, there was a filling station close to where I lived that had a pump, kept locked, that sold 110 octane leaded racing gasoline. My 72 Corvette, which just happened to have a 68 350 in it, ran really good on half and half race gas and their 93 octane unleaded. The Mini got it straight out of the pump. It had 11:1 compression by then... but I digress.

I reveled in driving either one to work, and driving around the building on either side of the building depending on the wind direction, on days that I knew the windows would be open. BTW that was the EPA NVFEL, which stands for the National Vehicle and Fuels Emissions Laboratory. The gearheads loved the smell wafting through the air, the rest didn't have a clue what the smell was.

What I am saying is that for me, I don't get it. I've seen power drop after a certain air fuel ratio is reached, in both Otto cycle and Diesel cycle engines. And again, for me I want to get the most power out of the engine, relative to its maximum air flow potential. I know that a few of the engineers there learned about efficiency and the way to think about it, because Dan and I mentored them. Regardless of the outcome, efficiency wins out every time. You want HUGE power to get down the track faster, your significant other may want to get to the supermarket without stopping each way to fill up so that you can build "More Power". It's still efficiency.

So again, I'm just saying that I know that I have grown up a bit, wanting to get the most bang for the buck. Oh, and the longest life out of my tires. And I want them to grip in the corners, and have enough tread to run in the rain. Yeah, I've become old...

So back to the garage and try to make more power!

[SuperBuickGuy]

a driving contradiction - welcome to BS

[DanStokes]

Interesting observation based on the Mercedes OM617 Diesel in Mutt: When I got the Dieselmeken fuel pump installed and making maximum power (as measured on a DynoJet so somewhat questionable) the ol' boy would roll coal during the transition from zero wheel speed (so the load at the starting line) up to maybe mid-track or so, say the 1/2 mile mark. After that it the exhaust cleaned up and he was optically clean as could be. I'm sure he was overfueled at high starting loads and yet the speeds he was able to attain made it pretty clear that the engine was making power. I don't have an explanation other than maybe there's a level of overfueling on older, mechanical pump Diesels that "works" but that too much is, well, too much. That's a guess.


Start line:





Top of the track:

[dave.g.in.gansevoort]

Dan, if you think back to those looong dyno days, pre-electronic controlled engines had anti-smoke dashpots on the pump rack. Kept the smoke to a minimum on wot and killed acceleration. Then when we started running DDC engines with the 1st generation of D-DEC, 400 hp was the norm, and engine ramp up blew the 600 hp dyno away from 1200 rpm to around 1800 rpm. That beast had torque rise that was so steep...

What was interesting was Plain Mike adjusted the program to limit the cycle so that the engine torque rise matched that of the dyno. PM was nonexistent, hc was a fraction of the standard, BMFC was low, however NOx went through the roof!

BTW that was the engine that started the HD Diesel settlement action. Tom B. had me run a program as he just knew that the manufacturers would be able to game the system. Chet just brushed it off. Leo from DC got a hold of it, and the rest is history...

But the funniest part of the story wasTim. Remember how religious he was? Peanuts Mike was running the testing for me, Tim was helping. Mike called me into the cell. He showed me the serial number. It had 66... in it. Yes 3 in a row! Timmy wouldn't go anywhere near it after that. Peanuts would drum on the rocker covers just to irritate people in the hallway.

[Captain]

Do Wide White Walls make your Classic Cadillac GO FASTER?
OR
Is it the Kelsey Hayes Thousand Spoke Wire Wheels ?

[dave.g.in.gansevoort]

Do Wide White Walls make your Classic Cadillac GO FASTER?
OR
Is it the Kelsey Hayes Thousand Spoke Wire Wheels ?

So it's not just me! There are other things that someone just doesn't get. I will say, however, that it's not a bad thing! Remember when drifting was first being talked about? My buddy Jim, who was in his late 50s, early 60s then, was fascinated by drifting. This was a guy who didn't like rock and roll after Buddy Holly died, just for reference as to his demeanor. However, it must be remembered that he raced on dirt tracks from 1962 to 2010, literally days before he died, finishing 3rd in his last race.

He had a good sized paved parking lot at his shop, and frequently would drift the hillclimb special out there when I had done something to the engine in it as a way to see if the most recent adjustments/improvements/updates to the engine performed up to our expectations.

Back to my initial thought about this subject at the start of this post. It's not a bad thing that generations adapt to the realities of their eras. Muscle cars, then crappy cars. Vans, then imports. The rebirth of performance in the 80s sort of, Mustangs and Camaros with 200 plus factory hp. Electronic engine management units (computers, ). Aftermarket products that made performance fun again. And on and on...

Doesn't mean I understand some of the trends, like o-ring tires, but just like rock to me is the Grateful Dead, the Stones and early AC/DC, amongst others, 50s thru 69 era cars are my favorites. But I can appreciate a 2024 Subaru Impreza RS (good thing cuz I just bought one), or an 80s VW Rabbit set up for road racing.

So what is the one thing that you all don't get? There's no right or wrong, and as my therapist would say, talking about it will demystify it...

Which reminds me of the time with the lady pipe fitter, the roll of Teflon tape, and the bowl of guacamole. But I'm much better now

[DanStokes]

So what is the one thing that you all don't get? There's no right or wrong, and as my therapist would say, talking about it will demystify it...

For me it's overly lowered vehicles. I don't like it when the top of the rim is up in the fender well. Looks like the suspension needs work.

And yes, Dave - I remember those days all too well. I tried to convince Timmer that he was reading the ID tag upside down and the engine was really SN 999. He didn't buy it.

[dave.g.in.gansevoort]

For me it's overly lowered vehicles. I don't like it when the top of the rim is up in the fender well. Looks like the suspension needs work.

And yes, Dave - I remember those days all too well. I tried to convince Timmer that he was reading the ID tag upside down and the engine was really SN 999. He didn't buy it.

His buddy Dave M didn't think a thing about it. He was just as devout a Christian.

And I agree with you on the overly lowered. Not my cuppa tea. And that's all right! Trash can mufflers. Not for me, but I can't talk. Remember the Super Traps on both the Fiero and the Mini? Oh, and that American Thunder exhaust I put on Maggie's Rustang.

[Russell]

In my teens and twenties I would roast the tires. It was fun, showing off, I liked the sound of the engine and the smell of the tires. 40k mile tires lasted about 10k I looked forward to getting a new set.

I really think it was home ownership that ruined the fun of burn outs and doughnuts.

[dave.g.in.gansevoort]

In my teens and twenties I would roast the tires. It was fun, showing off, I liked the sound of the engine and the smell of the tires. 40k mile tires lasted about 10k I looked forward to getting a new set.

I really think it was home ownership that ruined the fun of burn outs and doughnuts.

Confession is good for the soul, and the tires. You know, upon reflecting on the topic at hand, it probably began for me when I was involved in the dirt modifieds. I drove $100 gems in those days, probably not one having over 100 hp by the time I got them. And the goal with the dirt car was to hook up the tires, not roast them. That's the fastest way around a dirt track. And the tire budget was limited to new tires maybe every other race, compared to the front runners who put new tires on every race. And as a reference, 1 tire cost more than my daily drivers

[SuperBuickGuy]

For me it's overly lowered vehicles. I don't like it when the top of the rim is up in the fender well. Looks like the suspension needs work.

And yes, Dave - I remember those days all too well. I tried to convince Timmer that he was reading the ID tag upside down and the engine was really SN 999. He didn't buy it.

you may want to stop watching the Belinda thread.... just sayin'