Woodworkers?

[yellomalibu]

I'm a handyman. A customer wants me to build replacement shelves for his kitchen cabinets. What he has are 5/8 thick mdf or particle board, and they are sagging under the weight of the dishes and whatnot. I'll be using 3/4" material.
He's not so much worried about the cost, but more the strength. I recommended using a 1x2 across the front and back to stiffen up the new shelves (and to cover end grain), but he doesn't want one across the front as it limits the usable space.

I was planning on using the oak plywood and applying a veneer to the end grain that shows, then painting it white to match his cabinets... or to fill the end grain with wood putty, sanding smooth, then painting.

My question to you:
Which would be better/ stronger, solid oak or oak plywood?

[98ciHemi]

Re: Woodworkers?

Solid oak. I have used plywood in heavy loadbearing situations before and it doesn't hold up.

[Bamfster]

Re: Woodworkers?

If cost isn't an issue, go with the solid. Plywood is still nothing more than a laminate. On shelving, I like to router the exposed edges with an ogie bit and then either stain or paint to match and install with the routered edge down. It adds a nice little detail ...

[milner351]

Re: Woodworkers?

if you are going to paint the new shelves white anyway to match the exterior of the cabinets - why not use solid poplar?
cheaper than oak and in my experience - it takes paint better (more even grain). I have used sherwin williams trim paint in similar situations with great results.

[Schtauffer]

Re: Woodworkers?

Solid.

How long are the shelves?

[DanStokes]

Re: Woodworkers?

Regardless of material - I've plowed a rabbet across the middle of the underside and run a stiffback on the underside of the shelf - say 3/4 X 1 1/4. I just glued them in. This stiffens a shelf considerably and has little impact on the capacity of the shelving. You could make a sample and see if he is OK with it. It's really surprising how much structure this adds.

Dan

[yellomalibu]

Re: Woodworkers?

Solid.

How long are the shelves?

They are various lengths... my business partner has them written in his notepad.

I am definitely going to run a 1x2 across the back to stiffen them all up... and on the longer ones - the cabinets that have a center style between the doors - The customer wants me to install the adjustable shelf brackets, like those on either side, on the back side of the style.

I really don't see the hardwood plywood sagging with the 1x2 across the back and the center support on the longer shelves, but my business partner likes to do everything overkill... not that there's anything wrong with that...

I priced out the oak at Lowe's this morning after I made the first post. the 3/4" oak plywood is about $50 a sheet, and one 6' 1x12 is about $48. That will add up fast... the customer just may opt for the cheaper one after all... we'll see.

oh, btw, when we use our Amex business card at the contractor desk, they give us a 10% discount! We have to ask for it each time, but it saves (our customers) a lot of money.

[happy39]

Re: Woodworkers?

Really need to know how long the shelves are before you can comment.

[squirrel]

Re: Woodworkers?

yup. But even 3/4 plywood without bracing is gonna be better than mdf.

make sure it's really 3/4" though

[Schtauffer]

Re: Woodworkers?

Solid.

How long are the shelves?

They are various lengths... my business partner has them written in his notepad.

I am definitely going to run a 1x2 across the back to stiffen them all up... and on the longer ones - the cabinets that have a center style between the doors - The customer wants me to install the adjustable shelf brackets, like those on either side, on the back side of the style.

I really don't see the hardwood plywood sagging with the 1x2 across the back and the center support on the longer shelves, but my business partner likes to do everything overkill... not that there's anything wrong with that...

I priced out the oak at Lowe's this morning after I made the first post. the 3/4" oak plywood is about $50 a sheet, and one 6' 1x12 is about $48. That will add up fast... the customer just may opt for the cheaper one after all... we'll see.

oh, btw, when we use our Amex business card at the contractor desk, they give us a 10% discount! We have to ask for it each time, but it saves (our customers) a lot of money.

The crap from Lowes & Home Depot will often warp. It's not always dried very well. Try find a hardwood dealer, cabinet shop, or furniture shop. I've found those places to be cheaper and the quality is better. There's a couple places online that have a good reputation, even, but I never had the courage to try that.

[Mr4Speed]

Re: Woodworkers?

I'm a cabinetmaker so I can tell you all about this-probably more than you want to know. Solid stock is bad for shelves-it's the strongest but it won't stay flat with seasonal changes and the shelves will always wobble, and it's expensive. MDF/particle board will always sag unless it has about 1"x2" stock on both the front and the back. Veneer edge banding just doesn't last very well. Veneered plywood is the way to go for shelves. You will need to put solid wood on the visible edge-sanding and filling is too much work, it's too hard to keep a sharp square edge, and won't wear well. Since it's being painted it's best to use Poplar veneered plywood and solid poplar for the edges. You don't need much-3/8" x 3/4" is fine but 3/4" square will work too. There's no need for any kind of fasteners just glue. You will need a good clean straight cut on your glue edge. Cut your facing pieces net on the length and just leave them a little oversize in the thickness and trim them net to the thickness of the plywood after the glue dries with a router and a flush trim bit. After a quick pass with an orbital sander they will be ready for paint. Glue them up two at a time face to face and it will only take one or two clamps per pair of shelves.

Oak is bad for anything that will be painted because the grain will always show through. Use poplar or maple for paint. Poplar is the best and the cheapest.

[min301]

Re: Woodworkers?

...he said wood...lol

[squirrel]

Re: Woodworkers?

damn, Bill

[IRONHEAD]

Re: Woodworkers?

if going solid..
you don't need oak..
but if you must..
dovetail the planks together..
pine would be more than enough
and 1/2" oak is overkill never mind 3/4"

[yellomalibu]

Re: Woodworkers?

I'm a cabinetmaker so I can tell you all about this-probably more than you want to know. Solid stock is bad for shelves-it's the strongest but it won't stay flat with seasonal changes and the shelves will always wobble, and it's expensive. MDF/particle board will always sag unless it has about 1"x2" stock on both the front and the back. Veneer edge banding just doesn't last very well. Veneered plywood is the way to go for shelves. You will need to put solid wood on the visible edge-sanding and filling is too much work, it's too hard to keep a sharp square edge, and won't wear well. Since it's being painted it's best to use Poplar veneered plywood and solid poplar for the edges. You don't need much-3/8" x 3/4" is fine but 3/4" square will work too. There's no need for any kind of fasteners just glue. You will need a good clean straight cut on your glue edge. Cut your facing pieces net on the length and just leave them a little oversize in the thickness and trim them net to the thickness of the plywood after the glue dries with a router and a flush trim bit. After a quick pass with an orbital sander they will be ready for paint. Glue them up two at a time face to face and it will only take one or two clamps per pair of shelves.

Oak is bad for anything that will be painted because the grain will always show through. Use poplar or maple for paint. Poplar is the best and the cheapest.

Definitely NOT more than I want to know! Thanks for your input. My main concern with the solid wood shelves was cupping over time... I was also weary of the humidity changes from season to season with the solid wood, thinking that the plywood would be more "stable".