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  • Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

    Lets keep the political stuff out, and if you dont want to know how to make fuel yourself, just dont read this. It is not about if ethanol is good or bad, its about how to make it yourself and use it effectively in your vehicles.

    I grew up on a farm and I used to ask why we never made fuel since we grew all sorts of stuff we could use to power cars, trucks and our equipment. The problem was nobody knew how to do it, they tried in the 70s but couldnt figure it out. So it sat in the back of my head for years, couldnt find much info on it anywhere before the net. Nothing in libraries and not many books written on the subject either. In 2005 I found a website with a wealth of information about ethanol and a whole mess of other stuff, and it got a bit more interesting and I started collecting parts, tools, and information. Then the gas prices went nuts in 2008 and that year hurt financially because I am on a fixed income and I didnt get anywhere near enough money to get around in any car I had. So that kicked it off, poverty is the mother of invention just as much as necessity is.

    You can easily make ethanol fuel from pretty much anything with starch or sugar in it. Yeast are the little buggers that make if for us, they eat sugar and if they are in an anaerobic environment (no oxygen present) they will produce ethanol and carbon dioxide. Common yeast cant eat starches and make ethanol, the sugar chains are too long for them so we need an enzyme to break up the chain into bite sized bits for the yeast. There are other ways to make ethanol such as from cellulose and with other microbes but they arent exactly easy for the average joe like us to utilize.

    Starches are things like wheat, corn, oats, potatoes, etc. Things made with starches like bread and donuts can be used to make ethanol too. The enzymes we need are abundant in nature, every seed has some of them in it, because the seed itself is stored starch for the new plant to grow on until it can take in sunlight and CO2. The plant cant use the starch as is, it needs to make it into sugar first, that is where the enzymes come in. When the seed sprouts it releases those enzymes and then uses the starch to grow. We can use some of those enzymes in some seeds, but that takes a bit of knowledge and preparation.

    Sugar is pretty easy stuff to find, its everywhere. Getting enough to run your car might be a bit of a problem here though, or so it would seem. Cane sugar works, so would candy waste, and anything else with a high sugar content rather than starch. You can use high sugar content molasses if its available, or if you have an overabundance of honey you can use that too, but with a bit more work because honey has properties that prevent yeast from eating it without working it over a bit first.

    Some interesting things about ethanol. It has a boiling point of 173F at sea level, water has a boiling point of 212F at sea level. We use that difference to separate ethanol from water, because the yeast need the water to move around and eat the sugar, no water, not much yeast or ethanol. The most efficient way to get the water out of the ethanol is to boil it and use a column to separate the alcohol vapor from the water vapor. As long as the still doesnt go over 173F, you wont get much water out the other end.

    If you run your car on straight ethanol, hydrous or anhydrous, you wont have carbon build up in the engine. That means when you tear it down you wont have black gunk or soot stuck to everything. Additionally your oil will last longer because it wont get choked with abrasive carbon particles. If there arent any particles stuck to things, and they dont get in the lubricating oil, then wouldnt that reduce wear on the engine because it doesnt have grit being rubbed on the cylinder walls and bearings? Hey how about that, yeah it does! Brazil runs most of their vehicles on ethanol, and taxi cab engines routinely go 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles on it. At 500,000 miles there is often no appreciable wear in the engine. How would you like to have your engine run just as good at 500,000 miles as it did when you first built it?

    E85 is rated either 105 or 106 octane depending on who you talk to. Straight ethanol is quite a bit higher around 116 or so, depending on who you talk to and the method used to determine the octane. E85 is quite often not very good gasoline mixed with ethanol, because it has a very profound effect on octane rating when mixed with gas. Mix 67 octane gas with ten percent 110+ octane ethanol and you get 89 octane, it isnt linear due to a bunch of reasons. With E85 or neat ethanol you can run very high compression ratios or boost for two reasons. First it has a high octane rating and resists detonation. Additionally it has a high latent heat of vaporization so it pulls the heat out of the intake tract creating a denser mixture. E85 is more sensitive to cylinder pressures because it has that bit of gasoline in it, but it is still far and away much better at both these things than premium pump gas. Most people compare 87 octane pump gas to E85 for price comparison and say its a wash, when really it is more like VP red or C16 as far as octane is concerned than 87.

    Running ethanol in a low compression engine with the intake tract sized for gasoline will result in reduced mileage. The engine is not optimally configured for ethanol use. Flex fuel vehicles are still limited to using less knock resistant gasoline, so the mileage will suffer a bit. Not nearly the 30% that is claimed by most people though, it depends on the vehicle as to how much of a difference there is in mileage. Most of the people I have been working with have seen no more than a 15% drop in mileage, and often it is a 2%-10% difference. At higher ratios such as E40 some vehicles are seeing better mileage than on straight gasoline, particularly in working vehicles that have increased loads from towing or climbing steep grades. If you are burning it in an engine that will run with any ignition lead on 87 octane, you are missing out on what ethanol can do for you.

    Its 0230 and I need some sleep. I'll give more info later. Got any questions as far as use or production? Post em up.

  • #2
    Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

    More More More!!!!!!!!

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    • #3
      Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

      Todd, thanks for bringing up this fascinating topic. I was really intrigued when I read your post on the subject in another thread, and I'd definitely like to know more. What do you have to do to build an engine to take advantage of this fuel? Do you recommend using straight ethanol? What would happen if you used that in a "normal" engine? How could you tune a "normal" engine to take advantage of ethanol (short of rebuilding it to proper specs)? What do you need to even produce this moonshine?
      President, Wicked Rides Poland

      http://www.bangshift.com/forum/showt...eau-Club-Wagon

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      • #4
        Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

        And how much potatoes?? :P

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        • #5
          Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

          I've always wondered how much of any plant (such as potatos) is required to make the fuel - you mentioned in another post that 1 acre of cattails could make 1000 gallons of fuel (which seems like alot); but.... really I have no idea.
          Doing it all wrong since 1966

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          • #6
            Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

            Keep it coming.....You have my attention.

            Seth
            200 mph or bust.......

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            • #7
              Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

              Originally posted by Blazerteam
              And how much potatoes?? :P
              One ton of taters makes about 22 gallons of fuel, its not a bad yield and if you have no shortage of them then you're in business. I use spoiled taters from the local grocer to do test runs and make small batches. I can usually get between 500 and 1000lbs of them every couple months. What you use to make fuel depends entirely on where you are and what is available. Even the desert has plants that grow profusely and provide enough starch to make plenty of fuel. Mesquite pods have a decent amount of starch in them, and you dont need to cut down the tree, just pick up the pods.

              Originally posted by yogreasygramma
              Todd, thanks for bringing up this fascinating topic. I was really intrigued when I read your post on the subject in another thread, and I'd definitely like to know more. What do you have to do to build an engine to take advantage of this fuel?
              Ethanol can withstand more compression and cylinder pressure than gasoline can as well as allowing greater ignition lead so you can tune for max power without having to crutch the engine for crap fuel and pinging problems. Straight ethanol can run well in engines well over 16:1 and some farmers in the Dakotas have converted diesels to run on ethanol with very high compression ratios. Those guys up north get impressive mileage figures from the trucks and cars they have converted to ethaol burning diesels. So raising the compression and building cylinder pressure are ways to increase efficiency.

              Since ethanol pulls heat out of the intake charge and cools it, you dont have as much of a heat problem with it like you do gas. Your cooling system wont be asked to shed nearly as much heat because of how it burns. The old idea of keeping the fuel cold, the carb and intake as cold as possible goes out the window. Boosted cars get frost on the manifold in 90F+ summer heat while cruising around, thats how profound the effect is. Rather than shedding the heat, you want to retain it with ethanol, but you can make more power with a cool charge, it just doesnt drop off if its hot like gasoline does.

              If you want max power then you run the engine relatively hot, around 200F and keep the incoming air cool, like a scoop or similar ram air system. If you want to raise the efficiency you heat the air first, and heat the fuel, and keep all of it nice and toasty warm, that makes it easier and much faster to get the fuel to vaporize. I know it doesnt make sense to guys who know gas engines like the back of their hand.

              I know someone will ask so here it is. If you want to run a diesel on ethanol you forget the injector pump. Also machine the heads for spark plugs in place of the glow plugs, then hook up an ignition system. The 6.2 GM diesel in old suburbans and trucks was based on the Olds engine so you can stuff an Olds distributor in it with a little effort. Other engines would need a crank trigger or coil on plug setup. The cool part is using a vapor fuel system, you can go about it two ways. Plumb in EFI rails and heat the rails so you get the fuel temp over 200F because pressure increases raise the boiling point, or run a simple injector until it warms up then switch to a propane type vapor setup. It sounds more complicated than it is with certain engines, and really if you have an intake that would fit a carb you could use that too.

              Do you recommend using straight ethanol?
              I dont like gas after running ethanol. The only thing nice about it is that it is everywhere. If you can make enough fuel to supply your vehicle then why would you need to use any gasoline at all? You cant run much compression, or timing, the fuel coats the entire inside of the engine with abrasive carbon particles, and it runs hotter on gas. Everything is a compromise with gas, ethanol is much more flexible and while reading plugs is very different, tuning is easy due to the wide range of AFR that works well. Even E85 will leave some carbon in the engine, but vastly less than straight gas does, a little bit on the piston crowns, but the gas is in there and the carbon will still cause wear.

              If you can make enough fuel for yourself, and that depends mostly on how much feedstock (starch or sugar sources) you have the tunings isnt very different from E85. So lets say you want to make a trip, drive the Power Tour but you dont want to haul around four 55 gallon drums of fuel. You find the stations along the route that have E85 available and fill up there. Some states are far behind with how many stations they have, its mainly a political thing.

              What would happen if you used that in a "normal" engine?
              It depends on the engine and the engine control system. I have a 92 F150 with a 5.0 and a 92 S10 Blazer with a 4.3L and both of them will run E85 or any mix rather easily. I didnt have to tune on either of them, just splash blend it. The pre OBDII engines have a bit more leeway in the tuning and parameters. My 98 Formula with the LS1 ran much smoother, made enough power to rip the tires off with a full tank of fuel despite it having a stock converter and 2.73 gears and it wont spin the tires on gas until its under 1/4 tank. The problem with the LS1 is the OBDII saw it as running lean, pulled a lean bank code and started overfueling. A bit of computer tuning fixes that, and really the LS1 doesnt have much injector headroom so swapping to larger injectors would be a good idea. Lots of info on LS1.com about switching to E85/ethanol.

              On a carbed car, you need to work the carb a bit, open the primary fuel and the idle circuits to flow more. Also the float will sit higher in ethanol than it does in gas, so you need to raise the float level. Holleys are super easy to convert, just a numbered drill bit set away from your car needing 12 step AA meetings. So far I am the only guy messing with Qjets and ethanol that I know of. They take a bit of work but man do they work nice. I havent messed with AFB or Thermoquads yet, but really it isnt difficult to convert them.

              Running E100/E85 in an engine set up for gas, ie low compression, weak timing, etc, will make about the same power or a bit more on ethanol in the low and mid range. Top end will be about the same. It will burn more fuel because it isnt taking advantage of ethanol at this point. It will clean all the varnish and crap out of the fuel tank and lines that has built up over the years running gasoline. That tends to clog things up a bit, filters, injectors, carbs, etc. If you have mandated 10% already that shouldnt be much of a problem because even a little does a nice job cleaning. Its not so much the ethanol's fault, its just doing what it does best and gas did what it did best, leave crap everywhere.

              How could you tune a "normal" engine to take advantage of ethanol (short of rebuilding it to proper specs.
              Remember the part about heating the fuel I mentioned above? Lets say you have a gas burner with EFI and you are making your own HE100 (hydrous ethanol) and you want plenty of power but you need the mileage. It just so happens that utilizing the boiling point of ethanol can help you get your mileage back. Ethanol has one boiling point, 173F. Gasoline has different things in it each with its own boiling point, so if you heat gasoline you get vapor lock except under extreme pressure. About 60PSi is all that is needed to get the fuel temps over 200F without vapor lock on ethanol provided you are using something to heat the fuel. Run the lines through a manifold that is connected to the cooling system, or heaters attached to the fuel rails, which also help with cold starts in temps under 30F.

              When the fuel reaches the intake port, it will instantly vaporize because it is far above the boiling point and its in a relative vacuum compared to the outside atmosphere. The much smaller particles of the vapor burn more completely quicker than the quite larger droplets of atmoized gasoline. They burn around the outside first, and a larger particle or droplet will take longer to burn than a very small one. That in essence is why a gasoline engine runs much hotter than an ethanol engine. You are taking advantage of that by heating the fuel, it gives it more time to become a very fine particle rather than a large drop of fuel. Smaller particles burning quicker and more completely increases efficiency and also makes power since its moving the piston by expanding rather than heating the block, heads, valves, pistons, and water jacket.

              Its harder to do this with a carb because carbs are not pressurized and they tend to vapor lock a bit easier. That is why on a carbed engine you dont block off the heat risers, and you let the intake get warm along with the heads. The intake manifold becomes the part that makes the fuel vaporize due to heat, and the cooling effect of the fuel allows a denser charge and you still make more power with greater efficiency. Its just a bit touchier with the temps.

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              • #8
                Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

                Originally posted by Thumpin455
                If you want max power then you run the engine relatively hot, around 200F and keep the incoming air cool, like a scoop or similar ram air system. If you want to raise the efficiency you heat the air first, and heat the fuel, and keep all of it nice and toasty warm, that makes it easier and much faster to get the fuel to vaporize. I know it doesnt make sense to guys who know gas engines like the back of their hand.
                Though I'm running gasoline, this is exactly why I keep my 195*F thermostat and also why I shot for just under 10:1 Compression. Improves the efficiency.
                Escaped on a technicality.

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                • #9
                  Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

                  What do you need to even produce this moonshine?
                  First thing you need is a Federal Permit. Its free for fuel producers under 10,000 proof gallons (5000 liquid gallons) and you send it in, then they call you and ask you a few questions about your operation. You also need to know your state laws regarding fuel production, and local ordinances. Some cities or states wont allow you to make it in a residential area so you need to find out what the local laws are. Go here to find out more about your state.
                  http://www.afdc.energy.gov/afdc/etha...ives_laws.html

                  Next you need some room. A place to do the work and a source of starch or sugar, storage locations for fuel, equipment, and feedstocks.

                  You need something to make the fuel from. That depends on your location and what is available cheap, free or easily.

                  You need an energy source, I use methane and firewood tomake mine. Shipping pallets work nice and quite often they are given away rather than sent to a landfill. Once again, whatever is available. My methane production will also heat my shop and house in the winter, and provide 140F water without burning the methane or anything else, which comes into play later. I'll explain my shop heater later when I have it all figured out and working well.

                  You need a tank that will not rust but will allow you to raise water to 212F to kill off any microorganisms floating in it or on the feedstock. Yeast dont like competition and you can get other bugs in there that will make stuff you really dont want to use as fuel. That same tank can be used all the way to distillation if needed, but you dont absolutely need to use the same one.

                  You need to regulate the temperature so the enzymes can break down the starch, enzymes shut off around 170F and they work best between 140F and 150F. This is where we need heat and cooling. After the enzymes have done their thing we raise the temp over 170F to shut them off. Some just put the yeast in at this point without shutting the enzymes off, it depends on the setup and a few other things. If you are using sugar or something with a high sugar content you can skip this step, its only if you are using starches, taters, cattails, corn, bread, etc.

                  Yeast eat the sugar and produce CO2 and ETOH (ethanol) along with heat because metabolism makes heat. So during fermentation we need to keep the tank cool, yeast dont like much more than 90F and they start to die off fast in higher temps.They also dont like rust, so old rusty 55 gallon drums will kill your yeast and you wont get ethanol from it. Its gotta be CLEAN. Lucky for us alcohol does a nice job cleaning. It would be a good idea to capture the CO2, since plants need it you can use it to grow more fuel if you are raising the stuff yourself.

                  Depending on the batch size it takes 2-5 days for enzymes to convert the starch, and 3 or 4 days for yeast to convert it to CO2 and ethanol.

                  Then you need a still. I run a couple 2" columns I built out of copper plumbing tubing. Larger stills require larger boilers but they make more fuel per hour. Different designs of stills fit different needs and produce varied proofs. Its best to start out with a small one and learn how to do all this stuff in small batches otherwise it can get expensive when you make mistakes. As you get your process down you can make things bigger. I can build an electric powered still that will make about a gallon of fuel start to finish with about $50 worth of copper sheet and some solder. Larger ones cost more.

                  The last thing you need to think about is what to do with leftovers, the stillage as its called. When they make ethanol with corn, they use only the starch in the kernel. All the other stuff left over is still there, and it has value. About 1/3 of the corn goes to ethanol, 1/3 to CO2 and 1/3 is left as distillers dried grain (DDG). The leftovers are awesome cattle or chicken feed, and cows dont digest starch very well, but they can digest everything that is left after distillation. So if you have animals that can eat the DDG then you have a place to go with it. You can sell it too provided you dont use anything in it that can harm the cattle.

                  If you dont have animals you can use it to make methane, and the same process can also create hot water, like my shop heater. You build a methane digester and put the stillage in it, and it powers your stills and boilers. It can even be run in a generator and provide electricity to pump fuel or power lights, or whatever. If you live on a farm or have room for a greenhouse there is a bunch more you can do with ethanol production, including making more food for you and possibly to sell. Just think, you could heat and power your home and shop, grow your own food, and make your own race fuel and it all blends together and interconnects. Just a thought. If you live in a city you can still do some of it, so dont count yourself out.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

                    Originally posted by TheSilverBuick
                    Originally posted by Thumpin455
                    If you want max power then you run the engine relatively hot, around 200F and keep the incoming air cool, like a scoop or similar ram air system. If you want to raise the efficiency you heat the air first, and heat the fuel, and keep all of it nice and toasty warm, that makes it easier and much faster to get the fuel to vaporize. I know it doesnt make sense to guys who know gas engines like the back of their hand.
                    Though I'm running gasoline, this is exactly why I keep my 195*F thermostat and also why I shot for just under 10:1 Compression. Improves the efficiency.
                    Yep and that is why I am cranking the compression in a couple 455s and running them hot on ethanol. You also need to get the engine hot enough to boil the water out of the crank case, otherwise ethanol engines run so cool the oil gets milky. Condensation is the problem, not the fuel. Even gas engines get condensation in them, but they dont have a problem getting hot enough to boil water, they have a problem staying cool enough things dont melt of seize..

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

                      Old thread bump. How is the fuel production going?

                      Any news on your heater?

                      Is there a source of conversions that states X amount of this makes X amount of fuel? Corn is prevalent here. But is it practical for a home brewer to make fuel with?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

                        You said that the 6.2 diesel is the oldsmobile design... absolutely not true. The 5.7 gm diesel is the oldsmobile design. The 6.2 is detroit diesel... however, with that slight snafu, the rest of what you said is true - you can swap gas heads onto the 5.7 olds diesel motor and convert it to gas powered (with a spark plug)... lots and lots of Olds racers use the diesel block because it's worlds stronger then the gas 5.7 (the later DZ block)... but you knew that last bit
                        Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                        • #13
                          Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

                          potatos , 2000lb for 22 gal fuel
                          whats the break down for other sources

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                          • #14
                            Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

                            Just a month after my last post in this thread my life changed and the remainder of last year was a very rough time for me. I didnt get anything done in my fuel or biomass heater projects. I didnt get much of anything done with the cars, it was a chore to paint the GTO. Life has a way of slowing us down at times, this was one of those times. I hope this year will be less stressful than last year and I will be able to do much more with all of this. So far it looks promising, we'll see how it goes. The one bonus to not doing anything with it is now I have a large pile of well composted wood chips that will probably be perfect for growing something edible.

                            With gas going over $3.50 here in the next few days, unless something changes, I really need to get all of my drivers on ethanol, either home brewed or E85. I have the funds to do what I need to this year, I can still walk ok, and the problems of last year have worked themselves out. So, as it goes along in the next few months I will keep you posted.

                            Yeah BG the 6.2 isnt Olds based, typo on my part, was thinking the 350 diesel and had just finished working on a Suburban the FIL had. Brain cramp. Thanks for pointing it out.

                            Corn works if you can get it cheap or grow your own, an acre makes between 200 and 500 gallons of fuel, depending on the yield. At $7 a bushel its going to up the price of the fuel. If you live on a farm then it makes more sense, especially if you have cattle. You can feed them the stillage that is left over after fermentation/distillation and they gain weight faster so not only do you get fuel you get cattle feed too.

                            This is on the low side, and the corn yields more ethanol per acre than this states, its an old table but will give you an idea of how much you will need of a certain feedstock to make fuel.

                            Per ton.


                            Per acre.


                            Cattails arent on there, but they have 6 times the starch of taters. Potatoes have lots of water in them, large cell structures have less starch in them, so it takes more to make fuel. Potatoes are something I can use, they arent something I can rely on for fuel since I have limited growing space. That being said, a ton of them really isnt that much, it sounds like a lot, but with three grocery stores in town having taters spoil you could probably get that many from them every week or so. I was getting 250-500lbs a week from the store that gave them to me.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Making race/street fuel with cattails, and other stuff.

                              federal wetlands protection shoots down that idea

                              800 billion barrels in the USA alone - drill here

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