Are throttle cables unsafe?

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

yes , everyone needs endorsements

[dieselgeek]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I don't agree that the Toyota problem is that the computer stopped accepting inputs, or that it's similar to a PC. PCs have to deal with 3rd party hardware, 3rd party applications, and the ability of the user to modify even the OS config. Not an embedded computer system such as the ar computer.

I see it a little differently than you - I work in the IT world, and I agree that Windows has to "work with" third party applications, etc. But so does Linux, and AIX, other flavors of UNIX operating systems. What I see if, some of these applications and hardware work flawlessly with each other, and some are "unstable" - the bottom line is never "whether or not there are third parties involved" but always "whether or not a human engineer made a mistake"

And besides - the Toyota computer has plenty of third party involvement. The hardware is made by someone different than who writes the operating code (firmware), and different yet again from the person who writes the calibration (the "tune").

Take a look at the early 1990s Airbus testing - it took them 10 years longer than anticipated to get the first Airbus passenger jets online, and a lot of that was caused by problems with the computer software. I took a programming class where the very first lecture was about "software quality control" and used Airbus as an example: apparently, something as simple as a ">" character that was backwards, caused the loss of a few good test pilots.

anyways, cliffs notes: Computer hardware and software rely on humans to guarantee that they'll work in all possible environments, input and output status, etc. It's highly unlikely that a test program can include 100% guarantee that there are no remaining "bugs" in that hardware and software.

[IRONHEAD]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I think chad hit it on the head. I'm somewhat neutral on the issue, like others above. I like the part about REQUIRING somekind of manual intervention mode.

I can say this for sure: it does not matter to me if a car company says "Our cars have brake-override in the computer" because, I am quite confident Toyota's problem is that the whole computer/OS/application is flaking out and not accepting inputs. It would be like saying "On our Windows PC, you can always hit Control-X to stop a runaway program" but we all know, many times when windows locks up - you can't type anything so it don't matter.

Hope that made sense. Computers can freak out, and it takes years of development time to get them right.

I agree and disagree with this one. I agree Chad nailed it. I don't agree that the Toyota problem is that the computer stopped accepting inputs, or that it's similar to a PC. PCs have to deal with 3rd party hardware, 3rd party applications, and the ability of the user to modify even the OS config. Not an embedded computer system such as the ar computer.

so what would YOU call all the aftermarker tuning sofeware and handheld tuners???????????????????

[IRONHEAD]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I just had an interesting idea. Everyone post the year you got your drivers license and what you had to do for the driving part of the exam. This kinda goes along with the points made earlier about the average driver being being a braindead tool with no driving skills (or something like that...).

1990. I had to back the car out of a parking space and drive around the block - all right hand turns - then pull nose first into the parking spot while using turn signals, mirrors, etc properly. That's it.

I'm wagering that the test has been significantly dumbed down over time. I was actually disappointed with mine. No freeway merging? No parallel parking? I practiced all that time and all I gotta do is go around the block?!?

1985
before getting in the car to drive, walk around it, checking tires/etc
parrallel park,,
back up for 150 feet straight
know what every sign I passed was(ment) and couldn't miss one (had to list them as we came up on them)
stop on a grade and not let the car roll backward as you started to move forward..
use of mirrors, the tester(state police) would ask what type/color/etc car was behind me after the car turn off(out of line sight)
parrallel park in reverse, once use'n your neck (turning back/neck to see where the car was going and park it..
and 2nd time with only the use of the mirrors, no looking backwards only far enough to see in the mirrors
how to change a flat on car you brought to the test.. safely (as if you where on the hyway changing it..)
how to stear out of a spin..
lane changes,
how far back from fire trucks/etc
what to do if your in a crash
how to read mile markers,
and then the normal rules of the road part.. signal use, brake use.
downshifting (engine braking) auto and stick if you where driving a auto you had to explain how your do it in a stick , or if in a stick the auto.
ajt. speed for the weather.. (my test was on ice and snow covered streets, in the rain)
3 point turn in forward and another in reverse..
who has the right of way in forks in road, 4 way stops,rotorys, etc
merging into traffic, side streets and hyway,,
how to control a car when it has a blow out..
how to stop the car from 55mph without use'n the hyd brakes..
how to use the e brake .
parking on hill, how to park and set the car in the spot so it will not roll if parking paul or e brake fail or broken..
I'm sure I missed a bunch..
the test was over an hour, drive time, not counting the tire change..
or the walk around and test of all lights and wipers ect, case if you brought a car with a light out or a safty issue (wippers,washer,tires,brakes,leaking exhaust) you didn't do the safety walk around before going to the test, instant fail..

[TC]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I just had an interesting idea. Everyone post the year you got your drivers license and what you had to do for the driving part of the exam. This kinda goes along with the points made earlier about the average driver being being a braindead tool with no driving skills (or something like that...).

1990. I had to back the car out of a parking space and drive around the block - all right hand turns - then pull nose first into the parking spot while using turn signals, mirrors, etc properly. That's it.

I'm wagering that the test has been significantly dumbed down over time. I was actually disappointed with mine. No freeway merging? No parallel parking? I practiced all that time and all I gotta do is go around the block?!?

I got my license in 1985 and I didn't have to take a drivers test. Well let me rephrase that, I had to take the written test, but since I took Drivers Ed, I didn't have to take the driving portion.

[moparmaniac07]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I got my license in 2005, and from the stories I've heard form uncles and my dad, it's harder to get a license now than it was when they got theirs. 6 months with a permit and 50 hours seat time required, although they have no way to verify the 50 hours. As far as the actual test, I just had to parallel park, drive down an alley, make a U-turn and go through their course. It was very easy. Some kids had to go out on the interstate and actually drive, it just depended on who was giving you the test. The permit test was easy too, although there were a lot of kids that failed it. 15 common sense questions that you had to get right, you were allowed to get 3 wrong.

[ponchoman]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I don't agree that the Toyota problem is that the computer stopped accepting inputs, or that it's similar to a PC. PCs have to deal with 3rd party hardware, 3rd party applications, and the ability of the user to modify even the OS config. Not an embedded computer system such as the ar computer.

I see it a little differently than you - I work in the IT world, and I agree that Windows has to "work with" third party applications, etc. But so does Linux, and AIX, other flavors of UNIX operating systems. What I see if, some of these applications and hardware work flawlessly with each other, and some are "unstable" - the bottom line is never "whether or not there are third parties involved" but always "whether or not a human engineer made a mistake"

And besides - the Toyota computer has plenty of third party involvement. The hardware is made by someone different than who writes the operating code (firmware), and different yet again from the person who writes the calibration (the "tune").

Take a look at the early 1990s Airbus testing - it took them 10 years longer than anticipated to get the first Airbus passenger jets online, and a lot of that was caused by problems with the computer software. I took a programming class where the very first lecture was about "software quality control" and used Airbus as an example: apparently, something as simple as a ">" character that was backwards, caused the loss of a few good test pilots.

anyways, cliffs notes: Computer hardware and software rely on humans to guarantee that they'll work in all possible environments, input and output status, etc. It's highly unlikely that a test program can include 100% guarantee that there are no remaining "bugs" in that hardware and software.

I work in the IT world also. Maybe with a little different experience, because I also see issues with Unix, Linux, etc. There is no perfect OS. There are obvious reasons why MS for example has more than their share of issues. Starting with the fact that all the rest of the deployed systems with different operating systems combined still don't equal the number of deployed windows systems. Bigger target. Add to this some of the functions/features that windows provides (good or bad) and the huge "anti-MS" sentiment, and......
Don't get me wrong. I'm not in love with MS. I don't hate them either. We have equally frustrating issues however with Sun/Solaris and getting support (we are btw a Fortune 50 customer so we have leverage. Thousands of server based systems and over 100 thousand deployed desktop/laptops. I run a pretty sizable chunk of the IT organization.)

But the point is that a analogy that compares an embedded computer in a car (or dedicated machine) to a PC is fundamentally flawed. I am NOT saying that there cannot be bugs in the SW. It is impossible to always write perfect code. I've run QA organizations. I am very aware of unit, regression and integration testing. We ALWAYS find some defects. Embedded systems also find defects. But there are so many fewer variables and such a higher degree of environmental control that to suggest that a computer system in a car would be "unreliable" like "having to reboot your PC" is simply inaccurate.

You mistake my meaning of "3rd party" involvement. When a contract manufacturer supplies or builds something to a specific design on behalf of Toyota, only the physical manufacturing is 3rd party. It is still a closed system. Toyota, for example, has complete control over the design - and once designed and manufactured, only Toyota (or a representative technician) can change the operating parameters. In the PC world, this is totally untrue. 3rd party devices are designed based on loose IEEE standards which are often not fully implemented. Each of them are changing embedded code (ie, firmware) all the time - and without consultation. 3rd party software is no coordinated with OS design. Then users can further go in and reconfigure operating parameters - or even replace core components (like DLLs) of the operating system. It is a completely and wholly different proposition altogether. Not even the slightest bit close.

[ponchoman]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I think chad hit it on the head. I'm somewhat neutral on the issue, like others above. I like the part about REQUIRING somekind of manual intervention mode.

I can say this for sure: it does not matter to me if a car company says "Our cars have brake-override in the computer" because, I am quite confident Toyota's problem is that the whole computer/OS/application is flaking out and not accepting inputs. It would be like saying "On our Windows PC, you can always hit Control-X to stop a runaway program" but we all know, many times when windows locks up - you can't type anything so it don't matter.

Hope that made sense. Computers can freak out, and it takes years of development time to get them right.

I agree and disagree with this one. I agree Chad nailed it. I don't agree that the Toyota problem is that the computer stopped accepting inputs, or that it's similar to a PC. PCs have to deal with 3rd party hardware, 3rd party applications, and the ability of the user to modify even the OS config. Not an embedded computer system such as the ar computer.

so what would YOU call all the aftermarker tuning sofeware and handheld tuners???????????????????

Umm, I'd call it manipulation of SOME parameters that immediately void manufacturers warranties and are often frankly not legal for street use... I'm not discounting them - I have a programmer for my Dodge Cummins. But the first thing you read when you open the box is the disclaimer that you just MIGHT be causing a safety problem and you alone are responsible.

But would YOU really compare the infinitesimally small percentage of people who use programmers to the vast overwhelming percentage of people who add programs or hardware to their PCs? Really? Exactly what percentage of people driving a Prius do you believe have used a tuner? Is there even such a device? I don't think so.

The point is that anti-tech people will often use the example of how you have to reboot your laptop as evidence that computers don't belong in (fill in the blank). It is simply a very poor analogy.

[IRONHEAD]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I never said a vehicle ecm was anything like a pc or mac for that matter..
but that said, any system that can alow user changes,(including vehilce ecm's)
opens the doors to issue's as most of the firmware is now flash not a chip..
a voltage spike can .play havock with flash memory

[ponchoman]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I never said a vehicle ecm was anything like a pc or mac for that matter..
but that said, any system that can alow user changes,(including vehilce ecm's)
opens the doors to issue's as most of the firmware is now flash not a chip..
a voltage spike can .play havock with flash memory

IRONHEAD, I agree with you. I was responding to DGs comparison to a PC. But, you also have to agree that by the same token, people can also much about with mechanical stuff, right? And there are different kinds of issues. Example: A voltage spike or loss of power during an ECM flash likely will result in an unsuccessful flash and a disabled vehicle - not a vehicle that behavior incorrectly LATER. There are checksum and other tests as the final step of the flash process that insure that the flash is complete - or failed. No in between.

But like I said, I agree with you but just disagreed that we should be tossing around comparisons to having to reboot your PC. No big deal.

[IRONHEAD]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

oh tay..
oh and no need for the screen name in cap's
I just forgot they where on when I set up account.. :D

[dieselgeek]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

to suggest that a computer system in a car would be "unreliable" like "having to reboot your PC" is simply inaccurate.

I have to disagree a lot. For example, I am able to make certain OEM computers "seize" with simple combinations of inputs that don't make sense. I work with a lot of engine computers, OEM and aftermarket. The aftermarket ones, ALL of them can be made to act just like a normal windows machine. I know how to make a GM DBW setup go WOT with a paperclip, did it once on accident... and again later on purpose. I fail to see the difference when both a typical Server, and the computer in the car, BOTH require the exact same things to run: Hardware and Software that are designed by humans.
It also seems weird for a Fortune 50 IT guy to claim that more Windows server platforms are deployed than all UNIX platforms combined, when all the major Intel-based manufacturers (the only ones that can run Windows) all claim to ship more Posix compliant servers than Windows. I am not "Anti Microsoft" - I am "Anti Reboot This Mofo in the Middle Of Production" and Microsoft server software doesn't play well with the "uptime" concept very well.


Carry on.

[Scott Liggett]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

People drive their cars everyday without any thought of a computer controlling things like the shifter and gas pedal. People are often happier in their denial or ignorance. I always thought that was a good thing because if you told them that there is a computer in there and it is just as likely to get a virus and not accept inputs you give it; there would be a huge distrust of it as a safe vehicle. The Toyota fiasco brought these possible problems to the front of the brain. I guess it's human nature not to trust machinery if it's any more complicated than a toaster.

What I know of operating systems wouldn't fill a thimble, but I do know that we use computers everyday without realizing how close they are to the laptop on the desk, ie our cell phones, blackberries, iPods, etc; and are shocked when they are destroyed by a downloaded virus.

[Huskinhano]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

Chad, funny you posted this question. Last week I was thinking along the same line with all the problems Toyota is having. The OEMs have gone to drive by wire and the government wants to install fail safe crap but on the other hand we still have mechanical (cable) operated parking brakes. Why not hydraulic? A carry over from early days of hydraulic brake failures apparently. Like a mechanically operated parking brake is going to stop a car at todays speeds in a reasonable time if your dual circuit hydraulic system fails :

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

hydraulic and cables both fail pretty good