Are throttle cables unsafe?

[TC]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I never said a vehicle ecm was anything like a pc or mac for that matter..
but that said, any system that can alow user changes,(including vehilce ecm's)
opens the doors to issue's as most of the firmware is now flash not a chip..
a voltage spike can .play havock with flash memory

Dude an ECM is a computer and it has software just like any other computer. Sure it doesn't have a graphics card or a sound card, but it does have a processor and memory and it has the ability to reference many inputs and at that analyze the information and send signals for outputs. Basically just like a PC, it runs software. ;)

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

A microprocessor incorporates most or all of the functions of a computer's central processing unit (CPU) on a single integrated circuit (IC, or microchip).[1] The first microprocessors emerged in the early 1970s and were used for electronic calculators, using binary-coded decimal (BCD) arithmetic on 4-bit words. Other embedded uses of 4- and 8-bit microprocessors, such as terminals, printers, various kinds of automation etc, followed rather quickly. Affordable 8-bit microprocessors with 16-bit addressing also led to the first general purpose microcomputers in the mid-1970s.

Computer processors were for a long period constructed out of small and medium-scale ICs containing the equivalent of a few to a few hundred transistors. The integration of the whole CPU onto a single chip therefore greatly reduced the cost of processing capacity. From their humble beginnings, continued increases in microprocessor capacity have rendered other forms of computers almost completely obsolete (see history of computing hardware), with one or more microprocessor as processing element in everything from the smallest embedded systems and handheld devices to the largest mainframes and supercomputers.

Since the early 1970s, the increase in capacity of microprocessors has been known to generally follow Moore's Law, which suggests that the complexity of an integrated circuit, with respect to minimum component cost, doubles every two years.[4]

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

as taught at the GM training center in the early eighties
FRED
F'in
redundant
electrical
device

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

RTFM
read
the
F"in
manual

[ponchoman]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

I never said a vehicle ecm was anything like a pc or mac for that matter..
but that said, any system that can alow user changes,(including vehilce ecm's)
opens the doors to issue's as most of the firmware is now flash not a chip..
a voltage spike can .play havock with flash memory

Dude an ECM is a computer and it has software just like any other computer. Sure it doesn't have a graphics card or a sound card, but it does have a processor and memory and it has the ability to reference many inputs and at that analyze the information and send signals for outputs. Basically just like a PC, it runs software. ;)

If you're really comparing an ECM to a PC then you know nothing about IT engineering. The overwhelming majority of IT related issues fall into one of two categories. Hardware failure (measured in MBTF) and integration related defects. Hardware failures can be minimized and mitigated by manipulating environmental factors (insulation, anti-vibration, etc) hardiening of systems, designing fault tolerance, etc.

The second issue has a great deal more variability. The more variables involved, the more complex your C&E matrix and your FMEA. Meaning - the greater likelihood of failure. Your fishbone diagram starts to look like a jigsaw puzzle. In a relatively self contained system, many of those variables are eliminated by preventing users from "customizing" or from preventing other third party code from interfering. In a PC, it's a completely different world. Even those who criticize MS for not being an "Open OS" have to acknowledge that when compared to embedded devices, it's REAL open. And other applications are constantly modifying the base OS itself. Take a look at your system registry once in a while. Start taking a look at modified/replaced DLLs, COM objects, etc.

Your comparison of how a PC is "just like" an ECM is why there have been so many failed technology ventures. Even engineers who have all their experience in embedded devices can fail to understand the massive differences, and so they fail to design with sufficient integration focus along with incredibly complex regression testing.

Simply put, embedded devices and specialty purpose systems such as ECMs are frankly far easier to develop higher MTBF ratings as well as being exponentially different in terms of unit, regression and integration testing. Comparing them is like saying that a Buckmaster .22 pistol is the same as an M109SP Self Propelled Howitzer. They're both "portable" and they both fire projectiles.

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

Chad, funny you posted this question. Last week I was thinking along the same line with all the problems Toyota is having. The OEMs have gone to drive by wire and the government wants to install fail safe crap but on the other hand we still have mechanical (cable) operated parking brakes. Why not hydraulic? A carry over from early days of hydraulic brake failures apparently. Like a mechanically operated parking brake is going to stop a car at todays speeds in a reasonable time if your dual circuit hydraulic system fails :

My LS's parking brake is electric...

[Barry Donovan]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

all computers ride that darn crsytal

ever see them..
13.4 mhz 14mhz, etc etc.
that is all they are riding. shaping hardware to do something for something and thats it.

Kinda scary. :o
replacing a foot pressing a cable driven throttle caliming better .. is like saying the computer is greater than god.

thank the flunking nerds. To this day a 12 step map for injection is high resolution... Now if that aint extinction of suicidal upon us all, nothing is.
the average fuel consumption is 17mpg. Not even the biggest baddest stampede of 1960s era hot rods all on the road at once used an inkling of that.

why focus on throttle? it is ALL a retarded flunking suicide. lies lies lies.. why have a throttle cable? nothing matters anymore.

[ponchoman]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

all computers ride that darn crsytal

ever see them..
13.4 mhz 14mhz, etc etc.
that is all they are riding. shaping hardware to do something for something and thats it.

Kinda scary. :o
replacing a foot pressing a cable driven throttle caliming better .. is like saying the computer is greater than god.

thank the flunking nerds. To this day a 12 step map for injection is high resolution... Now if that aint extinction of suicidal upon us all, nothing is.
the average fuel consumption is 17mpg. Not even the biggest baddest stampede of 1960s era hot rods all on the road at once used an inkling of that.

why focus on throttle? it is ALL a retarded flunking suicide. lies lies lies.. why have a throttle cable? nothing matters anymore.

Is a magic decoder ring required to decipher this post? WTH?

[dieselgeek]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

Is a magic decoder ring required to decipher this post? WTH?

said the guy who is talking about DLLs and Fishbone Charts and C&E matrices. Are you serious?

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

Is a magic decoder ring required to decipher this post? WTH?

said the guy who is talking about DLLs and Fishbone Charts and C&E matrices. Are you serious?

There is a difference between lingo and gibberish. Boxer's posts definately fall in the later category.

[ponchoman]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

Is a magic decoder ring required to decipher this post? WTH?

said the guy who is talking about DLLs and Fishbone Charts and C&E matrices. Are you serious?

Yes I am. If somebody doesn't know what those things are they are unqualified to insist that embedded devices and PCs are similar.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

Is a magic decoder ring required to decipher this post? WTH?

said the guy who is talking about DLLs and Fishbone Charts and C&E matrices. Are you serious?

Yes I am. If somebody doesn't know what those things are they are unqualified to insist that embedded devices and PCs are similar.

eh, so you're saying that someone who doesn't understand a Microsoft Software Programming Library, isn't qualified to discuss vehicle powertrain computers? then I'd have to say, what's your actual experience with PCMs in cars? Before I pass judgement.

[ponchoman]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

Is a magic decoder ring required to decipher this post? WTH?

said the guy who is talking about DLLs and Fishbone Charts and C&E matrices. Are you serious?

Yes I am. If somebody doesn't know what those things are they are unqualified to insist that embedded devices and PCs are similar.

eh, so you're saying that someone who doesn't understand a Microsoft Software Programming Library, isn't qualified to discuss vehicle powertrain computers? then I'd have to say, what's your actual experience with PCMs in cars? Before I pass judgement.

No. I'm saying that if somebody doesn't understand the differences they are not qualified. If you don't understand what a DLL is and how 3rd party applications replace core DLLs or what an FMEA is, then you don't understand enough about embedded vs open development and are not qualified. Somebody who understands vehicle powertrain computers is certainly qualified to discuss them. That does not mean they are qualified to compare them to PCs and open (non-embedded) development if they are not familiar with THAT.

Exactly in the same manner that as the example I used before. A gunsmith is more than qualified to discuss the design and merits of the Browning Bushmaster .22. Unless they ALSO have experience with indirect artillery systems, they are unqualified to compare them to specifics of the M109A6 Paladin.

Oh, and I've messed with plenty of ECMs (including in my hauler today), and I have direct and personal experience programming embedded devices.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

Oh, and I've messed with plenty of ECMs (including in my hauler today)

specifically what?

[ponchoman]

Re: Are throttle cables unsafe?

If you want to get in a personal discussion about exactly what I've done with my current ECM to modify performance parameters then let's take it offline. Suffice it to say that it is config changes using specific proprietary devices with maps having "some" areas of adjustment to modify boost, air/fuel, etc. Other than that, from an auto ECM perspective it's simply been diagnosing and replacing - NOT programming (actually, that's the point). From a non-auto embedded device perspective, it's mainly been PLC programming (largely ladder programming) in designing IR reflex time measurement systems - though I really haven't done much of that since around 2000. That being said, a PLC is far more similar to an auto ECM than a PC is.

The POINT is again that an ECM is a closed system. Yes, it has inputs and outputs. Doh. But every facet of its operation has controls in place along with limits, and there is just about zero opportunity for 3rd party integration issues. Like I said, find me that Prius with an ECM that the owner has modified. Just one. A PC on the other hand, is CONSTANTLY being modified right down to the core OS itself. What's worse is that it's being modified when you don't even know it, by the user, by the OS manufacturer and by 3rd party application developers all the time.