Let's address the Pro Touring thing

[Freiburger]

The Project X thread got me to thinking, again, about the state of "Pro Touring." When I was somebody, I was the somebody that Pro Touring guys loved to hate because they had the opinion that I hated the trend.

At the risk of annoying one and all, here's list of my basic beliefs on the subject.

- First, I have absolutely no problem at all with the goals of having a do-it-all musclecar that can drive anywhere and that can also stop, handle corners, and be comfortable and reliable. I prefer a bit more edge myself, but I could never hate a car that truly does it all well.

- Next, I think Pro Touring is the trend without a definition. For example, "Pro Street" was defined by backhalf cars. That one mod made it Pro Street, whereas Pro Touring has no one defining term. Even Pro Touring fans fight over the definition. There are many types of cars that could be called Pro Touring, as follows: 1) In my experience, the guys who REALLY have performance track cars don't use the term Pro Touring (ie, Big Red is a Pro Touring icon, but IMO it is not a Pro Touring car). 2) There's a core of musclecar guys with true all-around performance cars that are probably what I think of most as Pro Touring. There's nothing wrong with the cars, though I often find the owners to be overly sensitive if they are the type that really waves the Pro Touring flag. 3) What I believe is the largest group is the guy with a car that we would call a street machine in the '70s; they are musclecars with maybe 17s or 18s and big brakes, but the owner does not identify himself as a Pro Touring guy, rather, he's just a guy with a musclecar built to modern trends. 5) Then there's what we used to call Faux Touring, which is just any old car with big-inch wheels and not even a set of brakes; they don't perform, they just sort of look the part. 6) Finally, there are the cartoonish rides with 20-inch wheels that don't perform at all. They are the cars that have expanded the notion to extreme limits, just like when Pro Street got totally out of control. These show-based cars are often called Pro Touring by their owners, but they are the most hated cars by Pro Touring fans who really drive their cars and who feel that Pro Touring is function based.

- IMO, big-inch wheels are pretty ugly.

- I also know that many, many people used to try and tell me that "Pro Touring is the hottest trend." OK, but I also know that any magazine that says "Pro Touring" on the cover does NOT sell on the newsstand. Similarly, cover themes about brakes, big-inch wheels, handling suspension, or EFI do not sell on the newsstand. So how hot is hot?

- Jeff Smith is a huge fan and promoter of Pro Touring, and basically coined the term when he edited Chevy High Performance. He also pushed the idea HARD when he was the editor of Car Craft (he invented Real Street Eliminator) and then at Hot Rod (he ran all those handling-Chevelle stories) and then at Car Craft a second time. In all, that was about 25 years of big-ink promotion on a trend that was not occurring naturally in the marketplace. It took about 15 years for it to gain traction.

- Speaking of Real Street Eliminator, that is another conundrum. I still hear people say it was one of their favorite magazine events ever...yet the issues with RSE on the cover tanked badly on the newsstand.

- As the editor of Hot Rod, I used to get input daily that begged us to stop showing cars with big-inch wheels. On one hand, there is always a crowd of naysayers on any current trend. And SOMEONE is buying all those wheels.

- When revamping several magazines at the publishing company, we did a reader survey for each of them to asked readers what types of things they wanted most. In every single case, and I'm talking about perhaps 6 surveys for six different magazines, Pro Touring ranked third or fourth behind Street/Strip cars and Restored Musclecars as far as reader interest. When asked a different way, Pro Touring always scored least liked as a trend.

- I know of two magazines that saw increased newsstand performance when we stopped doing Pro Touring cars on the cover.

So there you have it. I don't hate all-around cars at all. I do have no use, personally, for show cars and I rarely appreciate bigger than 17-inch wheels on anything. . My favoring of street/strip performance cars in the magazines was mostly based on hard sales data and reader input. Most of all, I think the term Pro Touring itself suffers an identity crisis that damages it as a strongly defined trend.

There's always trouble when trying to define cars into specific niches, but this one seems to be a bigger bag of worms than most, and one with the squirmiest set of opinions. What's YOUR take?

[squirrel]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

Wow, that's a good question!

Some ideas, with no thinking time behind them.....

the short sidewall tire thing seems to have started as a "tuner" trend, and when it showed up on muscle cars it was just a bad scene. If it had come from a real road racing type origin things might be different? I know there are some cars that do have the real performance roots, but for every one there are 100 that are just big wheel/bagged fashion statements.

the trad/nostalgia/"rat" things seems to me to be in part a reaction to some guys going total nutso on full out perfect high dollar cars, which seem to be the epitome of the Pro Touring thing. These cars are just so out of reach they don't seem to be real, so they're not really relevant to most of us (who either don't have the means, ambition, desire, or "something" to pull it off ourselves).

Maybe it's just jealousy? or maybe it's that it's a whole different world? or something else? or all of it?

Good luck figuring it out....

[Monk]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

First, I am one of those old school anal bastards...... ;D
I can dig pro street......to me it has definition and a place in hot rods
Pro touring seems to be pretty much any ride with 20" wheels
I noticed on BJ auctions recently......the pro touring cars brought big bucks
I guess it has it's following and a desire factor
The guy who does most all my body work is doing a real nice
'70 Nova for resale...he mentioned just the other day he's going with
some 17" wheels (pro touring look) to pull some higher dollars
out of it
Also........where does pro touring stop and donks begin?
I just think anything over 15" is a waste...........

(I'll now go back into my cave)

[ksj1]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

I'll update my RoadRunner to disc brakes just cause im tired of going "Oh shit"more times than I care to admit.Maybe a 5 spd to get better mileage.Frame connectors because it flexes big time.Will it be a canyon carver and do "everything" NO!When I see tri-5 Chevy sitting on a new vettes suspension it does nothing for me.If there isnt a rattle or a wind noise its not a car to me.

[squirrel]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

If there isnt a rattle or a wind noise its not a car to me.

yeah, that's a big part of it!

[Scott Liggett]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

The problem with Pro-Street and now Pro-Touring was the major influx of poseurs. Those who wanted the look, but didn't want to commit to the some of the streetable and prices issues of going full tilt.

I personally have only seen one muscle car that looked good with 20's. The rest of them looked cartoonish. That size of wheel is out of proportion to the car and causes you to look at them, distracting you from the rest of the car. It's the perfect solution to hide a crappy paint job. I like the look of 18 and 17's on a muscle car, but can't afford them at this point.

I also think what they did to Project X is absolutely horrible. Losing the blower, losing the radiused wheel wells, the stupid wheels. Yuck on all counts. Maybe, I still like the rediculous 70's look of muscle cars.

As for driving my car. I started out with the jacked up stink bug stance on my 65 Impala. It became not any fun to drive. I like being able to go around a corner without the doorhandles scraping the ground. Sure, I could go all out with the handling, but I not a huge fan of rock hard suspensions. Sure, my car would be better in the quarter mile if I loosening up the front suspension, but that would make turning a pain in the ass. So, now I have somewhat of a compromise. It doesn't do one or the other great, but I can drive it all day across Cali and make quick lane changes with having my fillings shook out of my teeth and the remainder of my internal organs rearranged. I also added disc brakes to make it stop safer. No they are not 13 inch diameter because of the larger wheel necessary, but I no longer feel uncomfortable about driving on LA's freeways with modern cars.

I believe this is why I need 3 more 65 Impalas. That way I can have a everyday driver, a drag car, a road racer, and a parade float.

[Robert1320]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

I have nothing wrong with any early iron that can handle, drive and god forbid stop.
Some of the P/T goes too far for the hot rodders, tires and rims are too big, the cars
end up to Ricey looking instead of performance looking. I am sure most don't want
to be forced into that profile.

The problem with Pro-Street and now Pro-Touring was the major influx of poseurs. Those who wanted the look, but didn't want to commit to the some of the streetable and prices issues of going full tilt.

This is very true, remember the Grand Am backhalved cars that were still front wheel drive!!!! You know about these!

Maybe it was just the name Pro-Touring has a very SCCA - Road & Track feel. Kinda a leather driving glove, Foster Grants with a bad cheese and wine feel. When most a hot rodders may be more of the Beer & Cheatos type.

[BangShift McT]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

My idea of Pro-Touring: I can't remember which RSE it was, but there was a flat-black '69 Camaro that tried to do it all. Could run the strip and the track beautifully, but IIRC, looked like ass next to the rest of the competition.

Most of my hatred of "pro touring" is the way it got taken to an extreme. First, you had some dude that took an IROC-Z, had a good motor and swapped Vette IRS onto it and did it fairly cheaply. Good job!...Then, you had the dude that took some money, took good intentions, next thing ya know, we've got a stout but expensive to duplicate Coupe de Ville with a Caddy 500. Okay, not bad....on the wrong side of the idea, look at the new "Baldwin-Motion" camaro. Look at the new Mr. Norm's Darts. Cars that are going for over $500K at a cheese-and-whi...er, wine event in Scottsdale. I'm sorry, it's a Camaro, not a Ferrari BB 412 or a Dusenberg. Give me a break. Remember, folks, someone paid millions of dollars for what in the end amounted to a 50's era bus. Now you've got fakers, people that find the newest style 20" or better rims and slap them onto a '74 Torino, say "pro touring" and sell the thing for $10,000.

I like to think of my Diplomat as a handler, with the wide-ass 15's, lowered stance, Cordoba/cop Fury brakes and four-speed. I need more work, I know this, and I have no issue flogging the hell out of it at the strip or driving it every day. It will probably never come close to 1g on a skidpad, but that's ok, it will hold it's own with a Vette on a twisty road, and it doesn't scare the shit out of me on mountain roads at speed.

As usual, in the end for me, it's "do what ya wanna"...

[CTX-SLPR]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

I think Pro Touring suffers from an identity crisis just as you pointed out DF. Its really hard to make a category for a pro touring car with the same sort of broad definition you would for a Custom, Pro Street, Traditional Hot Rod... ect. You have autocross muscle cars, Trans-Am clones, stuff like that AMX that was in the final and never reported RSE that are hugely trick pieces of owner engineering. All of those cars could be lumped into the "Pro-Touring" category along with Big Red and that roadcourse '64 GTO but I doubt anyone short of Mark Stienlow would actually call their cars Pro-Touring.
I think Pro-Touring has been killed by incredible but untimately non or un driveable super cars from the big name fabricators, pouser imitators that throw bolt ons at best or wheels and sway bars at worst on thier cars. Its served to delute an already rather vague genre.
Jeff Smith is the "father" of this movement and I think his Chevelle and Mark Stienlow's Camaro's really are what Pro Touring was supposed to be. But then again, people have been doing that to thier cars for far longer just without the publicity or mailorder support. I think what really pushed this mainstream was when import manufacturers started producing more than just ecnoboxes and stepped into the realm of "sports and performance" cars. Sure a Supra or a Z might not match a classic muscle car but compared to what they were against from the Big 3 when new, it wasn't hard to see how people bought them new and started wanting that type of handling in thier classics. Through in the BMW and Mercedes sports sedans and coupes and now people with the money were saying things like "I wish my old Cutlass handled like this" and the aftermarket will go where the demand is and where there is bolt ons there is immitators with open wallets and tool sets ready to throw the Summit Catelog at thier Chevelle without a real sense of how to make parts work together in combination not just the biggest and baddest suspension parts they can buy.

Anyway, enough ramblings from the scientist.

[L98camino]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

In the process of building my El camino, many people have asked what "style" I had in mind. I've never built a car to achieve a certain "style". The car will be driven daily so that defines most of the choices I have made.

Beause it will have A/C, sound proofing, power everything, leather seats and nice paint, does that make me a poseur? No.

It will have 17's for the look I want, but also that size wheel is a nessesity to fit over the big brakes. It won't be sprung like a truck, but it does have big sway bars and adjustable rear control arms. It's an automatic with a mild TPI 350, do all these things make me a wannabe ProTourer? No.

It still has the 7.5 rear so slicks and high RPM launches are out of the question.

I built it to be fun to drive and get decent mileage and be comfortable and reliable. I am happy with the way it looks and I take pride in the fact that I did all the work myself. Style.... whatever.

I think that is the reason most of us have more than one project, sometimes we WANT to hear nothing but motor,or side step the clutch at 6500rpm. We don't care if the wind whistles around the doors and the paint is falling off. If it breaks, we fix it, we don't need to depend on it everyday.

[IndyShiftman]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

For me personally, my tastes have changed with age.
A car that has 15 inch wheels to me looks ordinary. Unless they are fat.
Anything larger than 17-18 inches doesn't look good to me at all. But that could also depend on the car that they are on.
I have owned Pro-Street. Drove a Pro Street El Camino for several years and got my fill of it. Got tired of the ride, the handling, the noise and everything else that goes with it. If I were still 18 years old, I'm sure I would love it.
As I got older, the attraction for more power, better handling, and comfort became more of what I wanted.
I'm like the number 3 muscle car guy that wants the modern improvements built into the car.
The big brakes is probably the best investment I made to my car. All the years I have had a hot rod, none had brakes that work as well as my Baer set up.
the suspension set up that I have makes the car handle great.
All in all, if the improvements I make, makes the car better, and makes me happier, that's whats important to me. If it makes it a Pro touring car, so be it.
I enjoy the feeling of it being tied to the ground on high speed turns and I also love the sound and smell of the long smokey burnouts.
My car does more that just go straight and fast. It turns, it has power and the AC keeps me cool on Power Tours. That's what I like.
For me, It's not about what its called. It's what I want.

[BigBlockMopar]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

We just had a similar topic on a Dutch- UScar forum about wheelsizes.
For me 17" is the limit aswell. And on some cars, anything bigger than 15" is not right either.
Very occassionally, a slightly larger wheel than 17" somewhat looks "ok", but only if the car lowered enough so theye go into the wheelwells enough.
I also think larger wheels make cars look smaller. Last thing I 'want' is owning/driving a big car that looks small. If I would like that I'd be better off dropping a V8 in my daily German "toy-box"-car... ;)

[Schtauffer]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

If a slow car (like mine) has sticky drag tires, should it be hated cuz it has something it doesn't need? IMO, no. Neither should a stock-suspension car with big wheels be hated just cuz it doesn't look "your way".

My 67 Malibu is Faux Touring. It has stock rear drums, and 11" discs off a 71 Olds wagon. It is lowered a couple inches with Hotchkis springs and has a 1.25 inch sway bar off a 77 Firebird, but other than that the suspension is stock. Its got 18's and 17's. I drive it a lot.

The Monte Carlo is a little better. It has tall spindles w/ Hotchkis uppers in the front, and Global West lowers/ Edelbrock uppers in the rear. It handles ok (it was a couple seconds quicker than 4th gen F-bodies at an autocross). I have a set of Welds for it, and a set of 17's. Its a lot more fun to drive than the Malibu.

Both cars would be extreme if you would take money out of the picture. They would both have more power and wicked handling suspension if it was cheap. I have higher priorities than my cars.

I am not interested in fitting into a certain mold. The reason the Malibu wears big wheels is cuz I think it looks ok, nut cuz it makes it handle better. It just looks nice, IMO. Plenty of people disagree, but I don't really care. Its my car. I think it looks really nice with Welds, too. But it doesn't handle very well, so when I take it any distance (road-trip) it gets the big wheels cuz it drives nicer.

I like most "styles". What you don't like is your choosing. Just don't tell me what I should and shouldn't like.

Should I put slot mags on the Malibu? My brother has an old set that hasn't seen the light of day since 1988...

[Matt Cramer]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

Also........where does pro touring stop and donks begin?
I just think anything over 15" is a waste...........

(I'll now go back into my cave)

I think that's an easy question to answer, at least for me: As soon as you say, "I don't give a scale on a rat's tail about how it handles, I've got to fit those rims on it!" you've crossed the line between Pro Touring and a donk. On a Pro Touring car, the rims are a means to an end. On a donk, they're an end in themselves.

It looks like Dave and I has a similar view of it. I've got to agree that the problem is that the definition is too elastic. I don't think the "practical all purpose street machine" side of Pro Touring is really a trend - it is, if anything, a case of a car being built without a trend, but instead just with features an owner might decide are reasonable. The main difference between this approach in 1978 and 2008 is that you can now get massive brakes and super-sticky tires that won't fit on 15" wheels.

[71SC/360]

Re: Let's address the Pro Touring thing

I must have missed the boat on the "Pro-Touring" concept because when I think of pro-touring, I think of a hot rod that's driven. One that has modern updates and creature comforts to make it a better driving experience than the original equipment could offer. With my description, most of the hot rods out there (even vintage hot rods) can be classified as a "pro-touring" car.
My personal take on the "pro-touring" movement is it's all a bunch of newer hot rods with an identity crisis. They are mostly non muscle cars and non traditional late model body styles looking for acceptance in the hobby. Personally I think there is a place in the hobby for custom cars of all types and body styles but I don't think the core of the hot rod community is going to take any new trend pushed on to them. Hot Roding trends have always been named after they had became popular. You can't name a new hot rod trend then bring it to everyone's attention and expect everyone to follow your lead like a Sheppard and lost sheep.
As far as the big wheels trend goes, I think anything with big wheels is a joke. I have no use for anything bigger than 16s and it takes the right body style to pull off 16's.