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Tuning, is it really all that??

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  • #16
    Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

    hUH...wHat?
    Originally posted by TC
    also boost will make the cam act smaller

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    • #17
      Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

      I've seen some of our 650hp motors lose 30-40hp by changing the timing 2-3 degrees. I've never seen a tune change things that much...not if you're reasonably close to start with.
      Cognizant Dissident

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      • #18
        Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

        I was discussing this today. Mostly, I was being double teamed by Carl and Yannick that tune, dist curve, and such can cost you as much as 25 to 30 hp. Yannick claims to see this on the dyno. I have no reason to doubt him.
        BS'er formally known as Rebeldryver

        Resident Instigator

        sigpic

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        • #19
          Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

          Originally posted by KeithTurk
          I'm really looking forward to the results from Engine masters...... does EFI really make a difference?

          Scott??? and can we figure out a way to include Driveablity into the Fray?
          This year they changed the rules so that carbed engines had to run a dual plane intake - and EFI users could run just about any cast intake manifold with the freedom to weld in injector bungs wherever they wanted. Predictably, it seems to have resulted in a bit of an EFI free-for-all this year.

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          • #20
            Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

            yes , racing your unwarmed car at -10 degrees is very important

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            • #21
              Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

              Originally posted by Matt Cramer
              Originally posted by KeithTurk
              I'm really looking forward to the results from Engine masters...... does EFI really make a difference?

              Scott??? and can we figure out a way to include Driveablity into the Fray?
              This year they changed the rules so that carbed engines had to run a dual plane intake - and EFI users could run just about any cast intake manifold with the freedom to weld in injector bungs wherever they wanted. Predictably, it seems to have resulted in a bit of an EFI free-for-all this year.
              Rules, correct. Free-for-all - not even close. 1/4 of the entries DNFd. A significant portion of the EFI entries, probably 1/3 or 1/4 of them, failed to complete a single pull.

              I was horrified to see all these pro engine builders trying EFI and missing the boat, wildly, on how to make an EFI system work properly. Flip side: I hope they don't learn in the next year because I really want to win an EMC. :D

              www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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              • #22
                Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

                Matt, you were only allowed to install injectors where there was a cast in pad. We had some other injector placements we wanted to try but couldn't due to that rule. As it was, our injector placement had to be fortified with epoxy to come somewhat close to the alignment that we wanted.

                A large number of folks tried EFI, very few were successful. Some of it was downright ugly.

                The tuning window for fuel is rather large, timing is where the hp lives.

                Bob

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                • #23
                  Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

                  knowing just enough to be dangerous with tuning, I think the clear advantage of EFI is the ability to make combinations drivable with wildly variable atmospheric conditions.

                  In this respect - Randal is the perfect candidate for DIY EFI.

                  He COULD spend time dousing his intakes with fuel while swapping carb parts to make it perfect at home.

                  Then - on his frequent drives to Vegas - he'd have to do it all over again to make it run right at those elevations, at the coast - he'd have to do it all again.

                  With EFI - he can have an atmospheric pressure sensor tune the fuel curve for him.

                  Neither a carb / distributor nor EFI are the right answer for every combination in every car for every budget.

                  Seeing pro's struggle during an engine masters challenge just proves that it's not easy for old dogs to learn new tricks, the most determined will learn, and I'm interested to see how it goes next time.
                  There's always something new to learn.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

                    THe funny thing is that Randal has done a lot of tuning with the laptop to get the car to where it was with the $5 qjet. The neat thing is that he can put more time into it and get it to work better than the qjet ever could.

                    My fabulous web page

                    "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

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                    • #25
                      Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

                      Perhaps an interesting anecdote:

                      I was sitting watching the video feed (you're not allowed to observe at the dyno) of the dyno room as a carb team scurried about tuning their engine. Several people, a bunch of tools a lot of activitiy. They got done and carried on.

                      Next team was on EFI, they came to their 15 minute tuning period, and the room remained empty. A teenager next to me asked why they weren't tuning their engine. I replied that "they are tuning their engine, its done on a computer and doesn't require any tools or people to be in the dyno room."

                      Bob

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                      • #26
                        Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

                        Originally posted by squirrel
                        THe funny thing is that Randal has done a lot of tuning with the laptop to get the car to where it was with the $5 qjet.
                        I don't think Randal has done that much "tuning"

                        He's spent most of his time making sure he has a stable electrical platform to manage his powertrain electronically. I takes a lot more work getting an old car's electrical system up to late-model snuff, to be able to take advantage of managing the powertrain electronically.


                        There's a lot more to EFI than "Fuel Injection" but the carb guys can't / won't understand that until they try it out.
                        www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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                        • #27
                          Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

                          Originally posted by dieselgeek
                          [
                          There's a lot more to EFI than "Fuel Injection" but the carb guys can't / won't understand that until they try it out.
                          That's the crux of the issue. The fuel injection tuning is the fun part.

                          We're still learning how best to wire and debug the systems. Use of capacitors, the "courtney diode" fix, and on and on.

                          But understand that we're junkies needing our EFI perfection.

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                          • #28
                            Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

                            The OEM's don't spend millions of dollars on test facilities and equipment, and salaries for hundreds if not thousands of calibrators because it's simple and easy.

                            It is very much possible - but it is very much a learning curve. The little exposure I've had to calibrating professionally made me VERY happy I was already a bit famililar with rich/lean, advanced / retard, etc from hotrodding. The folks that didn't know engines had a really hard time grasping BSFC, LBT, etc etc.

                            Calibrating for a hotrod, and calibrating for LEV3 or ULEV emissions certification are two entirely different things - but both are full of compromise.

                            Even with a hotrod no emissions requirements system you can't just tell it to keep 12.5:1 under all WOT conditions and make sure the spark is "all in" by 3000rpm or whatever.... everything is a compromise and the "maps" are quite often 3D (throttle angle, RPM, pulsewidth for example)
                            - takes a bit of time to wrap your head around.

                            But what can be done with it is VERY cool - DG has shown us many examples of that.
                            There's always something new to learn.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

                              Originally posted by dieselgeek
                              Originally posted by squirrel
                              THe funny thing is that Randal has done a lot of tuning with the laptop to get the car to where it was with the $5 qjet.
                              I don't think Randal has done that much "tuning"

                              He's spent most of his time making sure he has a stable electrical platform to manage his powertrain electronically. I takes a lot more work getting an old car's electrical system up to late-model snuff, to be able to take advantage of managing the powertrain electronically.


                              There's a lot more to EFI than "Fuel Injection" but the carb guys can't / won't understand that until they try it out.
                              I didn't encounter problems like that on the two OEM EFI systems I've swapped into older vehicles. But I suppose the OEMs spent countless hours figuring it out for me ahead of time.

                              Doesn't really matter what he was doing all this time, the point is it takes a lot of work to get EFI to where it is tuned as well as the best carb, but once you're there you can still do better.



                              My fabulous web page

                              "If it don't go, chrome it!" --Stroker McGurk

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Tuning, is it really all that??

                                Originally posted by squirrel
                                THe funny thing is that Randal has done a lot of tuning with the laptop to get the car to where it was with the $5 qjet. The neat thing is that he can put more time into it and get it to work better than the qjet ever could.
                                To clairify some.

                                To go with what DG said, I may of played with it a bunch (relative term), but I am far from making the "perfect tune" because I simply lack the experience to know what to look for. I've never been much of a drag racer, so what physical traits to look for for optimum power I have a very amaturish look at. I look for mpg's, and know relatively what to look for there.

                                As to get where the Q-jet is :D The only place the Q-jet and EFI behave the same is at cruise speed down the highway, the Q-jet seemed to really like that (or the cam didn't care much about fuel requirements). Otherwise, since the day the EFI went on the Skylark it starts 10 times better, has 1000 times better cold start and idle, has 10 times better low end grunt (the Q-jet was horribly rich down low, and lean up high, but I didn't mess with it at all). And as you said, with more time, or sitting on a dyno, I should be able to do much better than a Q-jet.

                                The T-bird, the TBI starts 100,000 times better than the Autoleak, and the TBI doesn't have a choke or IAC, and yes the Autoleak's choke worked. When the electrical noise isn't causing ECM resets (it has good days and bad days) the TBI makes the engine purr way better than the Autolite. I still have to work out an accel enrichment stumble on the TBI, but once that's done it'll work better than the autolite at all levels. With this car, I got good O2 AFR readings with the Autoleak in place prior to swapping the TBI back on, so I know what to shoot for, for the highway mpgs.
                                Escaped on a technicality.

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