Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

[Tom Slick]

Let's say for some reason that this magic 1000 hp number is something we set out to do as an academic excercise. My barely got out of highschool math background says we're gonna need a lot of air and a lot of fuel. Let's say I'm a cheap bastard and want to use JY parts for most of this, and street use will be extremely liimited. I'm wondering about how to handle the fuel.

About 93 pounds per minute of air. Turbo(s) seems easy enough for the air, but the fuel man. Yikes. I'm coming up with the following:

86 lb / hr injectors.

Pretty close to Lightning injectos, they are 42's and there are a lot of them out there for not a lot of coin. You'll want 16 by my math. I envision a bitch kitty of a time tuning that much fuel in the lanes... maybe not, but that's a lot of fuel to idle.

Here's my question. Could we use a MS to drive 8 of these until boost starts building and then drive the other 8?

A side question - if we were to put these halfway up the runners on a single plane and the other eight at the more traditional port location, with a bit of boost on it, will it have all that much impact? I'm wondering about atomization, or if it's really going to matter.

Another side question, would it be feasible to use multiple in tank pumps? I'm thinking three 190lph or 2 255's would be close to covering it. ?

Flame away.

[Tom Slick]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

The question is really about the magic. MS has auxillary drivers, I'm wondering if / how to control the extra 8 injectors with a Hobbs switches or something. It would take all 16 at 80-85% duty cycle to provide enough fuel at .55 bsfc to feed 1000 hp, according to my math, which is something I'm wanting to verify if possible.

Let's assume for this excercise that the bottom end is up to the task, and the air is there.

[Bamfster]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

Why not use a Duramax?......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnVn4NtMgSM

Or a Cummins?.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp496...eature=related

Turn the wick up even more, and hang on.

[fahrenschnell]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

You can use Cobra Jet injectors......80Lber's.....they are 80 lbs at 36 psi.....crank the fuel pressure to 60 psi and you have injectors that flow over 100lbs....

Seth

[purplecobra]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

no need to run 16 injector's. I built a 454 lsx engine for a sand buggy, used 120 lbs with a big magnacharger and a big stuff 3. well over 1000 hp

[just_james]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

I think the point Tom is trying to get is that he can pick up 16 42lb injectors a lot cheaper then getting a new set of 83/96/120lb etc. injectors. For instance, I picked up mine 42lb injectors for $75. Over on MSEFI, Matt Cramer has some interesting posts on dual fuel tables, 16 injectors, etc.. I posted a question similar question about running 16 injectors on turbomustangs.com here: http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...033#msg1290033

You can follow the link, no need to be a member over there. Matt Cramer wrote an good response which is worth the minute to read. I don't know what has changed in a year since MS3 has come around, but maybe he'll have something else interesting to say.

[Matt Cramer]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

I think the point Tom is trying to get is that he can pick up 16 42lb injectors a lot cheaper then getting a new set of 83/96/120lb etc. injectors. For instance, I picked up mine 42lb injectors for $75. Over on MSEFI, Matt Cramer has some interesting posts on dual fuel tables, 16 injectors, etc.. I posted a question similar question about running 16 injectors on turbomustangs.com here: http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...033#msg1290033

You can follow the link, no need to be a member over there. Matt Cramer wrote an good response which is worth the minute to read. I don't know what has changed in a year since MS3 has come around, but maybe he'll have something else interesting to say.

Yep, MS3 does change things a bit. It can run eight injectors sequentially and then have the next eight come on in a bank to bank mode.

Three small Walbros can be a cheap way to get enough fuel, too. Seen that done fairly often.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

j/y parts for just the turbo part or the whole thing, long block and all.
either way I'm sure D/G will post how to blow it all up . with j/y parts and magic
I'd post but I'd be wrong :

jeez, way to be completely worthless


Anyways, in answer to the original question - staging injectors is a piece of cake with any number of EFI systems, but you need to stay with the non-domestics if you want better staging. For example, a bigstuff3 is only "on/off" staged injection - no VE smoothing to "phase in" the power smoothly. You WILL get a huge AFR spike in one direction or the other depending on how you work around it. Step up to something like a Haltech or Megasquirt and you can bring on the extra fuel based on any number of parameters, the best of which are boost & rpm (VE table).

[just_james]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

Matt- what kind of Walbro's? How did they setup the in tank basket and run the fuel lines in together?

[just_james]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

A side question - if we were to put these halfway up the runners on a single plane and the other eight at the more traditional port location, with a bit of boost on it, will it have all that much impact? I'm wondering about atomization, or if it's really going to matter.

Any thoughts as to what is the preferred way to setup the injectors?

[dieselgeek]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

A side question - if we were to put these halfway up the runners on a single plane and the other eight at the more traditional port location, with a bit of boost on it, will it have all that much impact? I'm wondering about atomization, or if it's really going to matter.

Any thoughts as to what is the preferred way to setup the injectors?

I'm not sure how placement would differ on the boosted application - nobody can be sure until you test it realtime on a dyno - but, in N/A world, the tests I have done seem to imply more power with an injector located farther upstream - but the farther upstream you put them, the more likely you run into problems with distribution and tuning.

We're gonna flesh this one out even more here in the next month or two. Engine Masters engine and testing.

[TC]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

The only difference between a carb'd turbo motor and an EFI turbo motor is exactly that, the carb and the EFI, other than that everything else is going to be the same. So what the question is which is easier to setup and tune. Either way you'll need to read AFR's and one will require jet changes the other will require a laptop for tuning. One will need 50+psi of fuel to run, while the other will need maybe 25 psi if your pumping 20 psi of boost into the motor, either way an Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump will get you there. Sure there is more work in setting up an EFI systems, but you do get the add luxury of fine tuning the motor. Whereas with a carb you get it as close as the jetting will let you. Either way there are guys making BIG power(2400+hp) with Carbs and EFI. So it really becomes a matter of choice of what you like. And just like with DG being a good EFI tuner, there are guys that build blow-thru carbs that are custom tailored to your application and will run just as good.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

TC's done his homework. That about sums it up as far as I know. My opinion is that the carb tuning is harder, but I am in the minority there I think.

[38P]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

Let's say for some reason that this magic 1000 hp number is something we set out to do as an academic excercise. My barely got Here's my question. Could we use a MS to drive 8 of these until boost starts building and then drive the other 8?

A side question - if we were to put these halfway up the runners on a single plane and the other eight at the more traditional port location, with a bit of boost on it, will it have all that much impact? I'm wondering about atomization, or if it's really going to matter.

Another side question, would it be feasible to use multiple in tank pumps? I'm thinking three 190lph or 2 255's would be close to covering it. ?

1. Yes. Stage the injectors. If you're not so cheap, why not run something a little better than gasoline in the auxillaries? ;D A. Graham Bell's book Forced Induction Performance Tuning A Practical Guide to Supercharging and Turbocharging covers this in some detail.

2. I'd bench-test the spray patterns before I'd pick a location for the auxillary injectors. Note that many staged injector set-ups on IR/efi manifolds mount the aux injectors near the runner entrance or even above the plenum to increase heat removal effect of vaporization. Port velocities should be so high under boost that a higher position for the aux injectors likely won't be a problem unless the runners and ports are convoluted (injected fuel doesn't like to turn corners). A tunnel ram base would make all of this a lot easier than a converted 4bbl.

3. In-tank pumps are generally a pain. But as long as you've got enough volume and pressure, the engine won't care how many you use to get there.

Finally, you should be able to get better idle quality with staged injectors than with eight big expensive honkers because you'll be able to narrow the pulse width sufficiently at idle.

[horsewidower]

Re: Benchrace this - 1000hp turbo EFI how to

The only difference between a carb'd turbo motor and an EFI turbo motor is exactly that, the carb and the EFI, other than that everything else is going to be the same. So what the question is which is easier to setup and tune. Either way you'll need to read AFR's and one will require jet changes the other will require a laptop for tuning. One will need 50+psi of fuel to run, while the other will need maybe 25 psi if your pumping 20 psi of boost into the motor, either way an Aeromotive A1000 fuel pump will get you there. Sure there is more work in setting up an EFI systems, but you do get the add luxury of fine tuning the motor. Whereas with a carb you get it as close as the jetting will let you. Either way there are guys making BIG power(2400+hp) with Carbs and EFI. So it really becomes a matter of choice of what you like. And just like with DG being a good EFI tuner, there are guys that build blow-thru carbs that are custom tailored to your application and will run just as good.

Knocked it out of the park, TC. Nicely done.

I think both DG and I have a much greater respect for carbs than we did before we got involved in the EMC. I personally like the ability to peck away at a computer and not get gas all over myself like I would if I was changing jets. Other folks are far more comfortable with the carb. Both can provide excellent results in the hands of a competent tuner.