Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

[STINEY]

Tried posting this on GarageJournal, got some good feedback and the usual "hire an expert" nonsense. Then the clouds parted and the sun shone down and I realized I posted it on the wrong site! So now that I've got it in the right group of guys, here goes.

I'm getting closer to a real plan to enclose, insulate, and heat my 150ish year old post & beam type barn. This is my shop, and will be much more useful when I can fire up the furnace without heating the great outdoors. Right now I use the heck out of it in the summer, and as little as possible in the winter. Brrr!!



It does get cold here.



The plan is to replace the pair of sliders on the front with a pair of 10'x10' insulated overhead doors by framing up the openings, then the front can be sided with metal without the tracks or sliders to contend with.



Figuring out a ceiling has been a little trickier though. Rough idea is to hang nailers along the perimeter walls up high, and then use joist hangers to bridge the spans.



My problem is, I don't know what size of lumber to use? For the nailers or the joists.....the nailers will be spanning a good distance themselves, approx 10' between the upright posts. and 15' at the doors.

Was thinking 2x6 would be adequate, as this will only bear the load of the ceiling panels (thinking 1/4" osb), R20ish insulation, and some light fixtures.

Of course, budget is a concern. I want to use the lowest cost materials/methods, since this is basically building a building inside a building. I don't want something that fails prematurely though.

Anyone know if 2x6 are adequate, or if I can go even 2x4 on the joists?

Thanks!

[milner351]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

Look on line for dimensional lumber span tables, they will give you a good idea of what spans a 2x6 is rated for under much more of a load than you'll be asking from them.

One idea I've heard recently is worth looking into, basically using a huge tarp, pond liner, hockey rink liner to form the ceiling - stapling, or using screws with fender washers to hold it to the bottom of your 2x_ joists, then spray in insulation over the top of it.

I had very similar ideas for my barn in Ohio that was about the same age, but it had holes in the roof, thankfully you don't have that to deal with.

Another option depending on your span is to use foam board as the ceiling, then put additional insulation above it.

I just bought 1/2" osb and it's back up to $8 a sheet, and you'll need a drywall lift or some type of lift to help you get those sheets up there.

Are you thinking a pair of 55 gallon drums and some stove pipe for a wood heater? waste oil drip could be added on later.

[STINEY]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

Look on line for dimensional lumber span tables, they will give you a good idea of what spans a 2x6 is rated for under much more of a load than you'll be asking from them.

One idea I've heard recently is worth looking into, basically using a huge tarp, pond liner, hockey rink liner to form the ceiling - stapling, or using screws with fender washers to hold it to the bottom of your 2x_ joists, then spray in insulation over the top of it.

I had very similar ideas for my barn in Ohio that was about the same age, but it had holes in the roof, thankfully you don't have that to deal with.

Another option depending on your span is to use foam board as the ceiling, then put additional insulation above it.

I just bought 1/2" osb and it's back up to $8 a sheet, and you'll need a drywall lift or some type of lift to help you get those sheets up there.

Are you thinking a pair of 55 gallon drums and some stove pipe for a wood heater? waste oil drip could be added on later.

Good ideas.....foam board is on my list of materials to price shop. I don't really care what the ceiling is made of, I'll paint whatever it is white.

Does the foam stiffen the tarp/liner stuff up, I mean that's the theory right? Wonder how to test for compatability of the materials, does spray foam in a can come close enough to the professional stuff for an experiment? I have a friend who has access to old billboard tarps, but I'd hate to have it all up and ready, then the stuff react wrong and drop a big ole gooey mess all over everything. Spray foam sucks big time to clean up!

Silicone is also your friend for leaky roofs. Its not just for boating anymore! ;)

A friend has a barrel stove with brake drums and a pump for a waste oil heater, works awesome! I have this affinity to cutting wood though, never have the time required.

I've got a high efficiency propane 150,000btu furnace from Grandma's house (the pilot kept blowing out, so she got a new furnace) I'll probably blow the pilot out myself when I'm not in there using it, so it should work great for me. It was only 5 years old when replaced, but Grandpa died and without him to relight it in the middle of the night, she's better off with a new pilotless one.

[milner351]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

The guy I know that put up the tarp ceiling ( I think he used a pond liner ) did not reinforce it with anything. I think he stapled the liner to the bottom of his trusses (2ft oc) then blew in cellulose insulation on top of it.

I would not use "great stuff" to simulate the "real" expanding foam.

I have the icycnene foam on the underside of my metal roof with the trusses exposed.... it looks like a yellowish lunar landscape up there, but serves it's purpose - it was not cheap - almost 2 grand for the roof... but I didn't have many alternatives.

If you're going to heat with propane - I would look into heating the smallest area of the barn I could ... walling off about a two car garage area and insulating it like crazy -- propane is expensive stuff!

Slider doors suck in the winter - I have three of them!

[Russell]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

You could use 2x10 build a floor and have a second story to put stuff or expand the man cave. But that idea does not help much with the cost, unless you use John's idea and only inclose a small portion of the shop for winter use.

[milner351]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

Before I got my waste oil furnace - I had planned to enclose the area under the loft in my shop (roughly 10x30) and heat only that portion of the shop.

Given the big foot print you have to start with... I think we need more pictures of where the beams and posts are and how practical it will be to create "the shop within the shop".

Certainly building in "2nd story storage" is a great idea - and you could do accomplish that by building a more traditional floor truss set up with fiberglass insulation between the floor above and the ceiling below.

A friend from college runs this company - it's where I got my 2" foam, and I ended up buying his oldest forklift for $110 too, long story:

http://foamplus.net/index.htm

These guys look like they have great prices on corrugated metal if you decide to go that way for walls / ceiling.

http://www.michianabuildingsupplies.com/index.htm

[SuperBuickGuy]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

I'm a big fan of the spray on foam - as you already have a metal roof, I can't imagine they'd have a problem spraying it on.... also, while 2k is a lot of money - you could easily have 1500 in materials if you build a ceiling then insulate... and you'd still have to do the work.... spray - they cover, they're done in a day..... then tar paper, frame, insulate and dry wall the walls

[RR]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

I have a steel building for a shop. I used R19 roll insulation to insulate the ceiling. To hold it up, I used chicken wire strung (screwed to) to the ceiling purlins. I also used some house wrap between the chicken wire and the insulation to help. It has been up for several years with no problems and works well. The lights and such are supported by the joists.

As for spans on lumber- it is going to depend on what loads you will put on top of them and how far apart you plan on putting them (not just how far they will span). I also suggest looking for some guidelines on line for that.

Isn't Kieth Turk a contractor???

[STINEY]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

I will only be heating while I am out there working. Last shop was a 3 car sized frankenshop, used a fuel oil furnace from a mobile home, would only go through $150 worth of fuel in 2 winters, working 2-3 nights a week. Shop was insulated pretty good, but had old leaky wooden garage doors and 9' ceiling.

This ceiling will be in the 12' range, and I'm planning on MUCH better doors. Got pricing locally on 10'x10' insulated overhead doors, $1200 per door installed with opener. That's doable for me, no more sliders!

I'm also planning on using a heavy canvas/tarp to divide off part of the shop. The foot print is roughly 38x36 with a pair of posts down the middle. My plan is to build a wall COMING DOWN from the ceiling to about 7' above the floor. Then a tarp can be hung to finish the division. My thinking is that the upper section that drops down will be insulated and will hold that heat that always rises, allowing easier heating of the lower section. Maybe it won't work, but if nothing else it will give me somewhere to hang cool wall art.

And the 2nd story thing is already handled. This barn had central haymows, and the area above my main floor 16' up is a "2nd story" (actually 3rd) that is supported by basically 14" trees with the bark removed and 2 sides hewn flat. I already have a bunch of large bulky car parts up there. And my reasons for not just using that are twofold, I don't need a 16' ceiling by any means, and being trees, they aren't going to be easy to insulate around. The mow floors are huge planks just laid on the trees, really cool stuff to see. Some of the boards are 26" wide and 18' long, imagine the tree they came from!? Gives you a sense of history, and respect for the men who cleared the forests for farmland back then.

Anyways, most of the time I would only be heating an area about 15' x 36' x 12' high, with a work bench area about 12' x 20' x 8' high.

The upright posts are visible in this picture. The big beam across the top of the picture has the haymow sitting on top of it; my proposed ceiling would be about 4' below this beam, and run across to the matching beam on the other side. The uprights are on either side of the a-pillars of the mustang, and on either side of the rearmost portion of the bug.
[img][http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y21...F0432.jpg/img]

The haymow that is visible in this picture is now the man-cave. All that crap is organized and on shelving in the mow the pictures were taken from, and the man-cave one is free space where my kids can romp without getting in trouble. Nice having them close while I'm working, but not in the way or in danger. Easy to call them to lend a hand too!

Buickguy, I'd love to just spray foam the roof and call it done, but its 30' to the roof!! I'd never keep it warm like that.....I have to lower the space.

Chicken wire and house wrap. I like that - still have to have something to fasten it to that's not 16' high. I just don't want to try to heat that dead space first.

[Monk]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

You might consider I joists

Span table

http://www.ilevel.com/literature/TJ-4000.pdf

All depends on how much you want to spend......I joists
are made in longer lengths
They also might allow for more storage on top


OSB makes a good ceiling material.....or you might just
consider drywall.....insulate on top with fiberglass

Just some thoughts

[Tazracing]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

there is 8by 4' sheets of 1/8th" plastic paneling that alot of stores use, that is cheap,light and easy to hange for a ceiling..
also in your devide the wall that you want 7' from floor the a tarp..
2 eye lag bolts and a dog run the lenth with the tarp hung with shower curtain hooks(or those alum, clasp)
this way you just slide the tarp to one end and tie it off like a dinningroom curtain, when not in use, velcrow will make that a quick and eazy job..

[fine59]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

http://www.homeconstructionimprovement.com/foam-board-insulation-values/

kinda like they use under siding

[tardis454]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

Damn STINEY, I need to visit your barn. ;D

[STINEY]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

Taz, I have a dog run just like you describe, that would be ideal to hang a curtain from. Thanks man!

Fine59, that site has some good info on R values on foam board. Been eyeing that foil backed stuff as potential ceiling material. Good link, saved that one.

Tardis, you haven't even seen the haymow with all the goodies in it. Better bring your bib! Stop by if you get in the area!

Was talking with a creative fellow here at work. He suggested steel for the "nailers", as in using formed channel thru-bolted to the upright posts and sitting 2x6s across those. Would have to get creative to fasten the 2x6 to the channel but......is this the overkill gene kicking in again? See, I mentioned in another thread I have to watch out for that tendency.

[DanStokes]

Re: Time to work on the shop, inspired by Milner351 Gathering info for ceiling idea

As mentioned before, I've used the foil/foam board as a ceiling with great success. It's even strong enough to hold some fiberglass if you want. My plan is to wall off the hoist bay for heat of summer/cold of winter work and use temporary heat in the rest of the shop. I'll add foam ceiling as $$ allow until the whole place is done.

Dan