Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

[horsewidower]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

Honestly, Jim, they can tune the injectors and the ignition. But we'll let time inform us both.

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

from what I am reading , there will be preset tuning , like a street car
I think they are blowing motors up , and unlike your buddy , I have a memory , and nascar said midyear this year for efi , now it is tossed to next year , I am almost inclined to think there maybe a lot of carnage in the dyno cell , these sprint cup motors are on the edge

we may not see efi for a couple of years

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

http://www.bangshift.com/forum/index.php?topic=19358.0

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

DAYTONA BEACH, Fla. -- NASCAR technology moved well into the 20th century Friday.

I know, I know. We're in the 21st century. But with NASCAR engine technology, you take whatever progress you can get.

The current formula is, after all, in its 38th year. Soon after it was introduced in 1974, its obsolescence began. By the mid '70s, fuel injection rapidly began replacing carburetors in production cars. By the '80s, injection was dominant.

[+] EnlargePeter Van Manen
Todd Warshaw/Getty Images for NASCARPeter van Manen of McLaren Electronic Systems says the fuel injection units on Sprint Cup cars will be tamper-proof.

So Friday, only a quarter-century or so late, NASCAR announced that in 2012, Cup cars will use fuel injection in place of carburetors, and introduced the suppliers.

Britain's McLaren Electronic Systems will supply the hardware, and Freescale Semiconductor of Austin, Texas, will provide the control-unit technology.

NASCAR's resistance over the decades to injection was largely because it feared cheating, difficult to police, with sophisticated electronics.

Now, "We are confident, with McLaren and Freescale, that these systems will be bulletproof," said Robin Pemberton, NASCAR's vice president of competition. "They'll be cheat-proof."

How so?

"The units just won't run unless they have authorized NASCAR code," said Peter van Manen, managing director of McLaren Electronic Systems. "They would just sit there. So it is impossible to tamper with these units without opening the lock. And as soon as you open the lock, it is completely visible."

That old bugaboo resolved, there was still some disappointment Friday. Seems we'll all be stuck with restrictor plates at Daytona and Talladega for the foreseeable future.

How can that be, with fuel injection? Because this won't be the ultra-modern direct fuel injection, in which the injectors squirt the fuel directly into the combustion chambers.

This is age-proven "port" fuel injection, in which the injectors spray the fuel into the intake manifold. There's still a throttle body that controls air flow, so there's still a place for a plate.

"The plates are the easiest and most economical way [to reduce power on the big tracks] because you govern the airflow," Pemberton said. "So the part that the air flows through will be basically the same."

Elimination of the plates, although still a ways off, is likely in the long run. Pemberton acknowledged the weariness of teams and fans alike with the simple aluminum plates: "We know. We understand that.

"But right now, there's 32 other races that we run that are unrestricted, and it's very important for us to concentrate on that and get these things right," Pemberton continued.

"It's important not to try to do everything all at the beginning of one season," said van Mannen, whose boss, McLaren chieftain Ron Dennis, had made elimination of restrictor plates a major selling point on a trip to the United States last summer.

Teams will begin testing with fuel injection this season, but there'll be no races with the system until it is required for the full 2012 season. The Nationwide and Truck series will still use carburetors for the foreseeable future.

In the Cup series, there'll be little discernible difference to fans, Pemberton promised. The competition will be "greater than or equal to" the current racing, he said.

The only thing fans are likely to notice is the reduction of billowing fire from tailpipes as cars enter the corners of some tracks. The fire is a burnoff of wasted fuel with the carburetion system, and that will be greatly reduced with fuel injection.

The best part is that, at long last, NASCAR's "stock" cars will be catching up to real stock cars -- production passenger cars -- in fueling technology.

As Lou Lutostanski, Freescale's vice president of sales and marketing, put it, "For NASCAR fans, what gets them there [to the tracks] is going to be running there."

That'll be so for the first time in a quarter-century-plus. It's about time

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

sounds like a locked system

[Matt Cramer]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

It's probably going to be the same idea they use in F1. The ECU is set up so you're able to write things like fuel and spark maps, but unable to change the underlying code to add new features. It's possible they may do something like hand out new ECUs before the race, and the teams have to load their maps to them. While that wouldn't stop some rather bizarre hacks if it were something like a MegaSquirt (where you could just reload the entire firmware right there without opening the case), the MegaSquirt was deliberately designed to be hackable like this - a spec racing ECU is just the opposite.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

sounds like a locked system

locked firmware. That's a huge difference. Matt explains it pretty well.

The way you are thinking, wouuld be like giving a team a "pre-tuned carburetor" that they cannot adjust - if they did that, they might as well go to sealed spec engines too.

They'll be able to adjust fuel and timing per individual cylinder, "rumor has it" they may even run the MSD & distributor ignition although each engine will be fitted with a 60-2 trigger wheel, and a 1-tooth cam position sensor inside the distributor.

It's going to be funny to see the foreign 60-2 trigger wheel on the domestic V8s. Look on the bright side, now all the cup car stuff on ebay will already be set up for EFI and we won't have to hear from the whiners about the cost of "converting"

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

sounds good

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

you have seen how brain dead nascar and the tech people are ...banning bg carbs - roller cams - cot -that actually make the racing more expensive

[htrdharley]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

NASCAR's primary function (in my opion) for changing to injection and E15 is to generate media hype and to try to "mainstream" the sport, again. They need to increase the fan base and ratings...this will generate air time on the networks.
This will hurt the lower budget teams that are not associated with bigger teams.

This also hurts my ability to aquire race fuel.

I will be listing race carbs for sale in the swap meet forum very soon, put your orders in now.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

Now that NASCAR has decided to embark on a fuel injection program, the idea has been revived in NHRA ProStock.
Here are some expert opinions on the matter.

Warren Johnson: “I’ve been on to the NHRA to do fuel injection since 1989 and they still aren’t listening to me.”

NHRA’s Glen Gray fires back: “With the economy the way it is right now, we’re trying to contain costs. That’s the real reason not to adopt fuel injection right now.”

Also from NHRA, Bob Blackwell says: “Fuel injection has been discussed. General Motors was pushing for it a while back when they were heavily involved.”

Warren Johnson: Cosmetically, fuel injection would get rid of at least half of the hood scoop on these thing- probably
bring the air in off the front end from underneath the car, so they’d look more like a production vehicle than with
that huge mailbox sitting up there.”

Craig Hankinson (SKI Racing): “I would like to see us go to fuel injection because there’s not a car on the road
today that has a carburetor on it. But the problem is NHRA is afraid they can’t police the electronics of it. Fuel
injection is going to come, whether in two years or five. I think our performance will pick up because the tuning
of this is critical at the racetrack. With fuel injection you get somebody with a laptop and I’d like to see that.
I still like stuff we can monitor on the cars with computers, but you just don’t need it all.”

Victor Cagnazzi: “ Electronic fuel injection is the next mountain to climb. The technology is out there and it
could be implemented rather quickly. When the economy improves and when the NHRA feels the time is right
and EFI becomes the spec, I believe the performance gains will be substantial. I am an advocate of
implementation but certainly understand the financial challenges.”

Larry Morgan: “ I would love fuel injection but the sanctioning body isn’t going for it. Its going to make
racing better and make the cars look better. It would be cheaper as well because, instead of buying ten sets
of carburetors to get one good set, your have one fuel injection unit. Just designate a throttle body supplier
and it’ll be way cheaper, we’d just have to buy one and a single backup. If I were king, I’d put fuel injection in.
That’s what we have to do for fuel distribution.”

Mike Edwards: “ We’ve got to look at the startup costs and how fast were going to run with that equipment.
There’s a safety issue too. The tires we're using will take 211-212mph, and if your get another 50-60 horsepower
out of fuel injection, we don’t know the ramifications. Safety is first and foremost in all racing.”

Greg Stanfield is all for fuel injection: “When you start buying all the different carburetors, it makes sense
if they come up with a rule that mandates the throttle body we have use with the fuel injection., They can
do the policing in the mapping, in that they can have one company and , OK this is what were going to use for
mapping the fuel curve.”

Greg Anderson (KB Racing): “There are a lot of good things we could do to get more life out of the engines,
but we're not quite there yet. Fuel injection and a 5.3 in bore would be neat.”

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

that is cause the NMCA guys did the heavy lifting for pro stock

[SpiderGearsMan]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

the ASA swan song LS engines for all

AutoWorld.com - David Lee - General Motors' Vortec ASA 5700 V8 engine will introduce new technologies to stock car racing in the 2000 ASA ACDelco Series.

With the Vortec ASA 5700 engine, GM introduces fuel injection and electronic engine management to stock car racing. The V8 engine is rated at 430 horsepower at 6200 rpm and 430 lb-ft of torque at 4800 rpm. Except for a few modifications, the engine is similar to the production version found in the Chevrolet Corvette and Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Opel Omega and Holden Commodore and Statesman.

In addition to its fuel efficiency, the Vortec engine packs a powerful punch as it produces more than one horsepower per cubic inch or roughly 75 horsepower per liter.

"Bringing our critically acclaimed small-block V8 engine, with many new technologies, to stock car racing is a win-win situation," said John Juriga, GM Powertrain total integration engineer for Gen-III small-block passenger car engines. "Fuel injection is only one example of where GM has taken a leadership role in the industry. GM brought fuel injection to the marine gasoline engine market a few years ago, and now we are introducing it at the race track.

"We get to learn about the engine's performance and durability under extreme race track conditions. And, the ASA gets an engine that's high-performance and a great value, and built to very tight specifications. Having the engine on the race track is like having it in a rolling laboratory at speed."

Compared to the production engine, the Vortec ASA 5700 has a unique camshaft, with higher lift and more overlap, as well as a modified valve spring. It also has a dry-sump oil system, with a different oil pan to compensate for constant left-turn driving during race conditions.

The engine also includes new rod bolts, with 25 percent greater fatigue strength, which will ultimately find their way into the production engine-just one example of improvements GM makes or will make to the production LS1 as a result of racing development.

The engine controller-the powertrain control module-is also the same as in the production engines. It's calibrated with different values, for fuel and spark, for example, to optimize race performance. The powertrain control module also has engine diagnostic capability. Key engine parameters and functions such as fuel rates, spark levels and critical fluid temperatures and pressures can be monitored.

According to Mark McPhail, GM Racing lead engineer on the Vortec ASA 5700, the engine offers more than just performance benefits.

"When work began on developing the new Vortec ASA 5700 powerplant, we not only increased the horsepower and torque capabilities but also made it cleaner burning and more fuel efficient," said McPhail. "The strides we have made in the combustion chamber design along with the advancement in engine electronics for the fuel management systems has resulted in lower emission levels. Cleaner burning engines also use less fuel, which not only helps protect the environment, but it also helps race teams make less fuel stops during competition. What we learn on the track is directly applied to our passenger car engines."

The Vortec engines will allow ASA teams to run more competitively, with a reliable, durable, high-performance engine at about one-third the cost of the previous, privately built V6 units. And, it will allow GM to evaluate one of its most prized engines in a demanding, high-load environment.

ASA ordered an initial 300 engines in 1999, which only took about three hours to get through the assembly line at GM's Romulus, Mich., engine plant. The engines are then shipped to Lingenfelter Performance Engineering (LPE) in Decater, Ind., where each engine is slightly modified, tested and sealed before they are shipped and assembled into the race cars. - Autoworld.com

I don't think thosewere tunable per the rules

[Tazracing]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

can't wait till a hacker wifi's and shuts down a teams car..
I'know I know, can't happen :

[dieselgeek]

Re: Nascar EFI pushed off to 2012

can't wait till a hacker wifi's and shuts down a teams car..
I'know I know, can't happen :

it seems easy enough after watching a few episodes of Star Trek, but the bottom line is, it just can't happen if there's no physical way to establish 2-way comms with the computer.

I've done that on some racing cars, but it requires specialized equipment on each end of the conversation. If McLaren doesn't put a radio receiver, only a transmitter, on their computer, there's zero chance of someone "hacking."

However, that doesn't preclude other methods for screwing them up, so you bring up a good point: suggested methods for disabling a competitor's engine management system:

(1) there's the Online Gamer's Favorite method: EMP. Pros: can wipe out an electronics package if it's not properly hardened. Cons: you'll have a hard time smuggling this into an event in your Playmate cooler, and the device is sure to rate high on Homeland Security's watch list

(2) Cause an electrical short somewhere inside the vehicle. Race electronics are typically more sensitive to this than OEM cars. One good spark event (think "starter wire contacts engine block momentarily") can wipe the brains of an entire computer in a millisecond.

I can't think of any other methods right now but they must be out there.