Hinson Crash Video Blog Item Comments

[dwarner230]

Thanks for clarifying my lack of legalize.

The reason we care for family is that the lawyer with his eye on the deepest pocket will push the family towards the organizers. Why do you think that most officials involved with motorsports have thier personal property protected against law suits steming from your profession?

The SCTA does employ an attorney to review their rules and procedures. As mentioned above, SCTA rules are written in blood. The SCTA also does not limit who can race or force someone to race who doesn't want to. Anyone can race at Bonneville if they make their vehicle conform to all the rules in place at the time. Nothing wrong with that, freedom in America!

Good luck with your racing endeavors, I wish I could meet you at Bonneville - looks like that can't happen.

DW

[nickleone]

Roll cages:

http://www.torquenews.com/image/interior-moparmagneti-marelli-dodge-avenger-rally-car

From a manufacturer that should know better. They want to take this pseudo rally car out where trees jump out in front of you.
Check the roll cage fail.
Video with the guy that let them do it.

http://www.torquenews.com/106/dodge-avenger-rally-car-debuts-new-york-auto-show

Nick

[98ciHemi]

Just a note- I am 19, have never had a steady job, and have no financial backing. Even though it involved a fair amount of beg/borrow/steal, I still managed to come up with a rollbar, seat and harness for my old car. Now I have a car with a full cage, good seat and harnesses for both driver and passenger, and a fire system. If I can pull of a ridiculously overbuilt safety setup, there is no excuse for a big name company to pull it off also. Just sayin'.

[Darren N.]

The guys with the 'Vette were obviously no amateurs with 1700+hp on tap and I personally think they should have known better. Would they have equipped a customer's car in the same way and encourage them to do what they did?

My limited experience with tech and safety rules is based on the Baja and Formula SAE competitions. We have really strict rules about the frame design and it will be inspected to make sure it meets all of the requirements. I'm guessing that having college and university kids killed in a wreck at an SAE event wouldn't be so great. But despite all of our rules, you can still sneak by with a sketchy setup. We've seen competing cars get into terrible wrecks due to poor welds, undersized tubing, stupidity or simple oversight.

I hate to bash my own local drag strip but they DO NOT tech anyone at Test 'n Tune sessions. This is all likely a result of the $6 fee and page-long waiver form but I've lost a lot of respect for the track for blatant ignorance. I check my car before I run but I have no guarantee that the car in the other lane is fit to drive. Because of all of this I'm usually the first one there, make my runs and leave before the clowns show up.

I agree that people should be free to run-what-ya-brung but frankly, if you're running on someone else's track and using their facilities you don't get to call the shots. Safety rules, for better or worse, are in place to make the sport slightly better for everyone at the cost of total freedom. Conscience and emotions aside, officials could be completely indifferent to your personal well-being but how will they manage to keep their business or organization afloat?

If the place is openly run as a "free for all", the second an accident happens and there is some form of public awareness the game's changed. When someone else steps in to investigate, be it a city, media sensation, police, etc. you can surely bet they won't let you continue business as usual. If you don't make the rules, someone else will.

I don't think the issue is restricting someone's "freedom" so much as it is trying to maintain the sport for everyone, in the longterm. This is the issue hot rodders have been dealing with since the first organized race.

[dieselgeek]

for those who don't know - stoneshrinkbuickguy is an attorney - and it's kind of entertaining watching the spectators to a legal battle weigh in on what happens in an attorney's office. What you miss is the 99 out of 100 who get sent out of the office because they don't have a case. (as a side note, pro bono means no payment, ever - contingency is the term you were looking for). Really, I'm kind of amused at all the rules that get made up without ever consulting an attorney - those are generally the ones that end up in Court. Or, think of it this way - attorneys are involved in the paperwork that you do to buy your house. How often does the paperwork become the cause of the lawsuit? almost never, almost always it's the schmuck who filled out the paperwork and didn't contact a lawyer when they had a question or fear that causes the vast majority of the problems.

Perhaps you should pause for a moment and think if an attorney is saying there is a way to run this; maybe we should listen? It's true, lawsuits happen; they always do and it's part of the participation fee/insurance you pay for when you come to an event. But to tell a person that they can't run because of some really arbitrary rules defies the very basic reason for having organized race events - that is to keep John Q. Public from being run over by Chad doing a burnout. When you start piling on the rules to limit who can race; eventually, your entire reason for being becomes moot - and you're not fulfilling your basic purpose.

And BBR - I couldn't have done a better example then your 25.2 roll cage example for a motorcycle... personally, I'd rather have a 4 point cage around me in a Corvette then straining to hang onto a hyabusa (too lazy to look up how that's spelled). In the end of the day, you're arguing that because you have a car around you, you need more protection - why not start with the motorcycles and work up to those who have greater protection.

As for the "it's my track damnit" attitude.... fanflippintastic, maybe fewer tracks would go bankrupt if the track asked "how can I get more people here" rather then "how many people can I chase away with rules that aren't that important in the great grand scheme of things."

And finally, who cares about what the family thinks? especially, why do you care? if the guy at the receiving end of the crash didn't care - you have even less reason to care. And to those course workers, thanks for the service - but really, if you can't handle blood, guts, and gore then perhaps you should take up crochet.

the whole problem with this post is that you are presuming ALL attornies have the same morals/values as you do. I totally appreciate what you're saying, but I bet that you personally have NEVER pursued a case similar to what dwarner is describing. Why? because you're an upstanding guy and not an ambulance chaser. Hate to say it but you are the minority in your profession.

[SuperBuickGuy]

I appreciate the kind words Scott, however, I'm certain there are plenty of people who would classify me as an ambulance chaser - and they're probably right, but one guy's ambulance chaser is someone else's hero who got them justice.... but ambulance chasing is only tangential to the issue.

People, for valid and silly reasons, have this unnatural fear of a Courthouse... lawsuits happen, just like death, taxes, and records falling. I continually hear the excuse "oh we don't do it because someone got hurt." If we continue down that path, eventually we'll all have cars like Sly Stalone drove in Demolition man (the one that filled with foam, and had the pleasant voice telling him all the sins he was committing while driving).

I'm not arguing doing away with rules, rather, I'm suggesting that - just like skydiving - people not get afraid of a bit of blood being spilled on the track, and plan for those events. That does mean people get to sign releases, it also means when people bring frivolous lawsuits; demanding the newspaper publish (publicly shame) the people who bring these silly suits when they lose.... If you want to know what frustrates me as an attorney here it is: most times the lawyers are put on a leash to keep from going after these people with the (grrr) because "they've suffered enough". Case in point on the east coast people are suing the track because their hubby went off the sandy end at 230+ mph.... they lose, they get shamed, they lose their house for taking the adventure.

What most people don't realize is that most states have a "frivolous, and you pay their attorney's fees" laws. The law is well used in those states - problem is the defendant (after they win) decides that they don't want to go after the plaintiff for the defendant's costs - and it ends. Of course, they (everyone in the case) blames the lawyers for the costs - no one blames the track owner or insurance company for not going after the plaintiffs in these cases. Secondarily, all states have laws that punish lawyers for bring frivolous cases.... problem is, many of these frivolous cases are only seems so because the reports about the case is someone else's perception of that case. Even those who bemoan the lady who got burned by coffee from McD's don't mention that 1) McD's never did explain why they were handing 180 coffee out their drive through window without so much as a coffee cozy; 2) the lady suffered 2nd degree burns on her vagina because when she dropped the cup - that's where the hot liquid went; and 3) the McD's employee who took the claim couldn't keep from laughing at this poor lady.... (1st degree bad sunburn, 2nd degree blisters, peeling, exposure of blood vessels, 3rd degree - removes all the skin)...

But I digress - the law isn't something to fear. It's just another business variable that can be adjusted and accounted for; and in the racing case, gets kids off the street who then meet really good people having legal fun.

And I still believe going from mandatory rules to mentor based racing would do the sport a world of good.

As for racing at Bonneville - why don't you think I'd go? (other then my dance card is filled).... although there is a certain guy running a Buick straight eight who thinks he's all that and a box of sliced cheese who might need someone to laugh at.

And racing, I pedal a bike around a velodrome at 45 mph on a bike with one gear and no brakes - and a paramedic who is at the dome to treat those who fall (and they do fall often)

[milkovich]

It also seems kind of silly to kick bone stock cars like the ZR1 and Shelby (or even a coyote with drag radials) off the track for not having a cage. The dealership will hand anyone over 18 and with good credit the keys to these "death machines," pat them on the back, and send them out into rush hour traffic and they seem to sleep at night. Not letting them on the track is almost irresponsible since the cars are GOING to get used. It also seems pretty smart to me to NOT put a cage in a car you plan to drive on public roads. Cruising cross country in a helmet would get sweaty.

To me a new corvette doing 180 also seems a lot safer then a 60's muscle car doing 135 so Hinson is quite as foolhardy as some people might think. How many times have we seen pictures of exotic supercars scattered all over the highway and the drunk movie star driving not only survived but managed to scurry into the bushes and hide. The cars we all love on the other hand are practically deathtraps at anything over 65.

[Dignlif]

I'm big on the safety thing, maybe paranoia or maybe I'm just a wuss. Not having driven anything fast previously, the decision was made early on to make the car as safe as possible. When my car was rebuilt, it was overbuilt considering the engine only had me running in the area of 12:01. It will certify to 8.50 with the swing out door bar we added but has never been close to that ET. The car has never actually been faster than 10.70 or 128 mph but I have room to grow as my engine budget does. I guess I did it backwards from many but I just didn't want to take any chances with my own safety.

[BangShiftChad]

for those who don't know - stoneshrinkbuickguy is an attorney - and it's kind of entertaining watching the spectators to a legal battle weigh in on what happens in an attorney's office. What you miss is the 99 out of 100 who get sent out of the office because they don't have a case. (as a side note, pro bono means no payment, ever - contingency is the term you were looking for). Really, I'm kind of amused at all the rules that get made up without ever consulting an attorney - those are generally the ones that end up in Court. Or, think of it this way - attorneys are involved in the paperwork that you do to buy your house. How often does the paperwork become the cause of the lawsuit? almost never, almost always it's the schmuck who filled out the paperwork and didn't contact a lawyer when they had a question or fear that causes the vast majority of the problems.

Perhaps you should pause for a moment and think if an attorney is saying there is a way to run this; maybe we should listen? It's true, lawsuits happen; they always do and it's part of the participation fee/insurance you pay for when you come to an event. But to tell a person that they can't run because of some really arbitrary rules defies the very basic reason for having organized race events - that is to keep John Q. Public from being run over by Chad doing a burnout. When you start piling on the rules to limit who can race; eventually, your entire reason for being becomes moot - and you're not fulfilling your basic purpose.

And BBR - I couldn't have done a better example then your 25.2 roll cage example for a motorcycle... personally, I'd rather have a 4 point cage around me in a Corvette then straining to hang onto a hyabusa (too lazy to look up how that's spelled). In the end of the day, you're arguing that because you have a car around you, you need more protection - why not start with the motorcycles and work up to those who have greater protection.

As for the "it's my track damnit" attitude.... fanflippintastic, maybe fewer tracks would go bankrupt if the track asked "how can I get more people here" rather then "how many people can I chase away with rules that aren't that important in the great grand scheme of things."

And finally, who cares about what the family thinks? especially, why do you care? if the guy at the receiving end of the crash didn't care - you have even less reason to care. And to those course workers, thanks for the service - but really, if you can't handle blood, guts, and gore then perhaps you should take up crochet.

Shrink,

As Scott said, I'm glad to hear you are not an ambulance chaser. As he said, you are often times thought to be a rarity in your profession. Your opinion on safety measures, race procedures, and sanctioning body rules is clearly based on your professional and personal experience with the law, and any racing you have done. I appreciate the education on each of these subjects, and would not argue legalese with you. I will however argue safety, racecar fabrication, and driving racecars themselves.

Like many people, way too many in fact, you referred to the 4 point, tubular steel, rollover protection device in the Corvette as a 4 point "cage". It is not. By any definition, it is a 4 point roll BAR. There is a dramatic difference. The roll bar in the Corvette is actually a 6 point, but is most certainly a bar not a cage. In order to be classified as a roll cage, it would have to include bars that go from the main hoop forward across the top of the door opening, and then continue down to the floor from a point near the top corner of the windshield. These two bars would need to be tied together AT LEAST across the top of the windshield. To go 200mph, this car should also have a full window net that covers most, if not all, of the door opening. This is just in case the door leaves the vehicle.

Arguing over whether or not the Hinsons should or should not be allowed to compete, with that particular Corvette, at any land speed event is a mute point. You and I can agree to disagree. However, one other thing I can't agree with you on is your point about tracks going out of business because they won't let people race. I have never heard of a track going out of business for this reason. It may have happened once, somewhere, but I've never heard of it. The number that go out of business due to noise, increases in insurance costs, environmental concerns, and metropolitan area growth are infinitely more common.

And finally...my least calm and professional response. "And to those course workers, thanks for the service-but really, if you can't handle the blood, guts, and gore then perhaps you should take up crochet." On behalf of all of them Shrink, shut up. If you are the guy driving up to a scene where the car is on fire and you jump in to pull a burning man out of the car to save his life, thereby burning yourself over some percentage of your body, and you find out that he was using a McDonald's straw as a fuel line, you are going to be pissed. And rightfully so. Once I healed, and if you lived, I would kick your f.ing ass up and down main street big boy... and I LIKE FIRE!

[SuperBuickGuy]

Thanks for clarifying my lack of legalize.


Good luck with your racing endeavors, I wish I could meet you at Bonneville - looks like that can't happen.

DW

nice.... I'm banned without ever attending.



As for your calm, professional response - perhaps a bit of history about me: I do search and rescue; currently, I'm learning how to train search dogs; I am a first responder; I've worked as a firefighter fighting forest fires when I was in college; I've worked as ski patrol and pulled the dead and the stupid off the mountain more times then even my nightmares can keep track of. So you can quit with the quick presumption that I'm an armchair quarterback. I've seen the blood, guts and gore that people tend to spew out of themselves doing incredibly dumb things - and worse, I've seen and pulled the rescuers (some of whom were pretty close friends) out as well.

And no, I've never been upset at those I've rescued - even the really really dumb ones.