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Talladega EFI test For Clean Air and the Children

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  • #46
    Originally posted by dieselgeek View Post
    OK that was actually pretty funny!! :-)
    thank u thank u the next show is at 10..

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    • #47

      "Gentlemen, start your semiconductors!"

      That probably won't be the command given at the beginning of next February's Daytona 500. However, it might be appropriate, given NASCAR's decision to require fuel injection for Sprint Cup engines beginning with the 2012 season.

      After ruling the roost since the Kennedy Administration, the iconic -- and museum-worthy -- Holley four-barrel carburetor is finally being put out to pasture as NASCAR's fuel system of choice. The Cup Series is joining the computer age, and that means engine builders and tuners are trading in their wrenches and wet flow benches for laptops and software mapping.

      The technology's moved on. It's time to move on.

      -- HOWARD COMSTOCK

      "The technology's moved on. It's time to move on," said Howard Comstock of Dodge Motorsports engineering. "But NASCAR understood this is a big step. It's a really big step for racing, it's a big step for these teams.

      "We've basically used the same carburetor for 40 years, and there's a lot of people who have made a life's work out of learning carburetors and making them work as efficiently as they are today. It's unbelievable how efficient they are. But they're purpose-built for racing and every car on the road uses fuel injection. NASCAR felt like it was time to update our technology and here we are."

      One of those people who has spent a lifetime in that occupation is Doug Yates, chief executive officer of Roush Yates Engines. He remembers getting the opportunity to play with carburetors in father Robert's engine shop.

      "I followed my dad his entire career, building engines, growing up around him," Yates said. "He first let me sweep the floors and then he let me help build engines. It was probably in my early teens when I started tinkering with carburetors."

      Ever been sprayed by a zealous employee at the fragrance counter of a department store? That's the basic principle behind a modern carburetor: combining fuel and air in a way that allows it to act like an atomizer, spraying the mixture through the manifold and into the cylinders for combustion.

      History of simplicity
      The carburetor explained, courtesy of Roush Yates Engines.

      Watch: Larry McReynolds and Chad Knaus break down air flow into the carburetor

      It's all Bernoulli's fault, in principle. In 1738, Swiss mathematician Daniel Bernoulli proved that the speed of a fluid increases simultaneously with a corresponding decrease in pressure. A downdraft carburetor is like a pipe in the shape of an hourglass that allows air to be sucked in from above and to pick up speed as the pipe narrows. At its narrowest point, fuel is combined with the air and the mixture is sent on its way.

      The throttle doesn't directly control the fuel flow. Instead, it activates mechanisms that meter the flow of air being pulled into the engine, and the speed determines the amount of fuel being drawn into the airstream.

      The idea behind carburetion has been around since well before the invention of the internal combustion engine. Karl Benz acquired a patent for one in the 1880s. Gottlieb Daimler perfected a carburetor with an atomizer nozzle in 1885.

      It's an elegant and simple solution, one reason why Comstock said it took so long to come up with an alternative.

      The beauty of why they've lasted 100 years is because they're a wonderful, mechanical device that works pretty efficiently in this kind of application.

      -- HOWARD COMSTOCK

      "The beauty of why they've lasted 100 years is because they're a wonderful, mechanical device that works pretty efficiently in this kind of application," Comstock said. "The problem with production cars is that with the range of conditions we see, it's hard to keep up with a carburetor."

      Herbert Ackroyd Stuart began working on mechanical fuel injection in the 1920s, but it wasn't until 1957 --when Bendix and American Motors combined forces -- that electronic fuel injection began to be commercially viable. The advancement of smaller and more powerful semiconductor computer chips eventually spelled the end of the carburetor.

      By 1990, every passenger car sold in the United States had gone to electronic fuel injection. But NASCAR held steadfast to the tried and true carburetor.

      "In the racing world, we've got a pretty narrow band of conditions that we see," Comstock said. "So it has worked a little bit better for a longer period of time. But electronic fuel injection is what every car on the street has, and we'll be able to say it's on our race cars, too."

      But the switch also means the end of an era of "black magic," as Toyota Racing Development president and general manager Lee White put it.

      "They may look like Holley parts, but there's been a tremendous amount of technology and engineering that's gone from what is a pretty archaic mid-'60s design into something that's pretty advanced," White said. "It's pretty amazing how well it really does work."

      Comstock doesn't even want to begin to know all of the tricks of the engine tuning trade.

      "They're pretty well-guarded secrets," Comstock said. "But they've done some amazing work on making them this efficient. The fact that engines make approaching 900 horsepower, and we can still see 4.5 to 5 miles per gallon on the race track, that's incredible.

      "It's incredible how they've been able to squeeze the fuel and still make the power, even this year, when we've gone to a pretty high concentration of ethanol."

      And even more impressive is how the lowly carburetor has stood up to the pressures of today's fuel economy racing.

      "The carburetor system has a power valve circuit in it, and it's really about how you use part-throttle operation and that power valve to help assist with fuel mileage," Yates said. "As we all know, fuel mileage races have been very instrumental this year. And we work with the drivers on percentage of throttle and how much fuel the engine uses. In recent years, that has been the biggest innovation: How to meter fuel at part-throttle."

      The flow of things
      Fuel injection explained, courtesy of Roush Yates Engines.

      Garage Expert: Larry McReynolds explains the technology behind fuel injection

      Engine tuning with a carburetor is an amazing combination of engineering know-how, years of expertise and a bit of a craftsman's touch. For Yates, getting a right flow of fuel to an engine is all about making minute adjustments.

      "The carburetor has a reservoir in the fuel bowls, and a lot of tracks we go to, we adjust float levels determined by whether the engine is starving for fuel at the higher RPMs or if it's spilling over coming off the corners," Yates said. "It's somewhat of a guessing game.

      "Now, with the reservoir actually being in the fuel cell, we won't have those types of adjustments any more. We'll be looking at the data to make sure we fine-tune the system to the best throttle response, the best power and the best fuel economy. It should allow us to do a better job, once we get acclimated to the new system."

      In many ways, the engine will be much more efficient because we can give exactly the right amount of fuel to each cylinder that it needs.

      -- HOWARD COMSTOCK

      One of the major advantages electronic fuel injection has over a carburetor, according to Comstock, is the ability to adapt to a changing racing environment.

      "Not all cylinders of a V-8 engine -- turning left all the time -- get the same amount of fuel," Comstock said. "The carburetor mixes the fuel with the air up on top of the engine and just dumps it into the intake manifold. And when you're turning left, centrifugal force tries to take more fuel to the right-hand bank of cylinders, less fuel to the left-hand bank of cylinders.

      "So you physically have to add more fuel than you would want to add, in order to make sure those left-hand side cylinders get enough fuel. We won't have to do that any more. In many ways, the engine will be much more efficient because we can give exactly the right amount of fuel to each cylinder that it needs."

      In addition, Comstock said EFI takes care of another problem that carburetors don't.

      "Some people don't think about the fact that a V-8 engine is pretty long, with four cylinders on each side, and those two inside cylinders are hotter," Comstock said. "So with a hotter cylinder, you're going to need a bit more fuel. So once again, we can tailor the mix of the fuel to get to the cylinders that need it."

      But here's the thing: NASCAR's common plenum manifold throws a curve to the engineers and tuners who might have EFI experience from other racing series.

      "In that common plenum manifold, each cylinder is still talking to each other through the firing order sequence," Yates said. "And it does still pull fuel from one cylinder to the other, which is something that's unique to our sport and a challenge, but also an opportunity that other series don't see.

      "They run what you call a stack injection, or single fuel and air for each cylinder. So NASCAR still has its uniqueness."

      Input and output

      So how do you gain an advantage with electronic fuel injection? Is it the guy with the best spreadsheet wins? White said it's a matter of s

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      • #48
        so they replace 1960s double pumpers with 1985 tech

        far out

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        • #49
          can't wait till the first car just rolls to a stop.. and the driver is walking to pit row.. can't refire as the ecu board is cracked from the 50+ g's it took hitting the wall.
          EVERYONE forgets D/G INCLUDED that every other racing type after a crash the car is done, so no one cares if the efi is dead.
          nascar half the feild is body man specials by 3/4 the way in.. I see DNF'S going way up..
          TONY STEWART, SMOKE WHAT THEY DOING TO THE CAR TO GET YOU BACK OUT THERE,?
          " the #14 mobil one team is chasing down an intermitant short in the efi system.. , man the car was fast, to bad the columbian in the #42 can't drive"
          SMOKE SAYS THEY ARE DOING EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO GET HIM BACK OUT...

          Monday morning news> NASCAR handed down a fine to TONY STEWART for complaining about the c.o.t. efi system


          I'm sure Brian and d/g will tell the world I'm wrong.. in some witty way..
          Last edited by Stich496; November 1, 2011, 11:18 AM.

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          • #50
            PC racing

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            • #51
              50 Gs? Never mind the electronics although I doubt the old MSD ignition box can take as much abuse as the McLaren ecu.
              Last edited by dieselgeek; November 1, 2011, 11:22 AM.
              www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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              • #52
                Originally posted by dieselgeek View Post
                50 Gs? Never mind the electronics although I doubt the old MSD ignition box can take as much abuse as the McLaren ecu.
                they don't thats why they install 2

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Stich496 View Post
                  they don't thats why they install 2
                  Little birdie tells me they run "redundant everything" on the McLaren box also. Keep trying..
                  www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by dieselgeek View Post
                    Little birdie tells me they run "redundant everything" on the McLaren box also. Keep trying..
                    birdie also says , they is a ton more wires and redundant don't matter when both sets of wire are in same area and is munched..

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Stich496 View Post
                      birdie also says , they is a ton more wires and redundant don't matter when both sets of wire are in same area and is munched..
                      Now you are reaching since when were the same wires any more redundant in the carb engines than EFI? Seems none of your gripes are relevant. NASCAR loves the EFI. Maybe you should too! HAHA
                      Last edited by dieselgeek; November 1, 2011, 12:45 PM.
                      www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by dieselgeek View Post
                        Now you are reaching since when were the same wires any more redundant in the carb engines than EFI? Seems none of your gripes are relevant. NASCAR loves the EFI. Maybe you should too! HAHA
                        nascar isn't driving,it either..
                        don't worry.. I'll be try'n it. but nothing will ever be as k.i.s.s. as thy carb.. and that has tons of pluses

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                        • #57
                          If a NASCAR is munched to the point of getting to wiring harnesses, then that car isn't going to go anywhere even with a running engine.
                          Escaped on a technicality.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by TheSilverBuick View Post
                            If a NASCAR is munched to the point of getting to wiring harnesses, then that car isn't going to go anywhere even with a running engine.
                            you tube big e crash car.. try again

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                            • #59
                              It's intersting that you bring up the "KISS" principle.

                              Upon close inspection, a carburetor compares to a fuel injector as they both take a supply of liquid fuel and atomize it into an airstream. Have you LOOKED inside the typical carburetor and seen how many tiny passages, moving parts (hell, just parts in general, there are HUNDREDS of parts in there!) gaskets and other crap that's in there?

                              A fuel injector couldn't be any simpler than it is. I'm sure that is by design - fuel injectors don't need "rebuild kits" or service anywhere near as often (or intense) as a carburetor.

                              Sensors for EFI are equally simple... the MOST "wires" you will see going into any EFI sensor is three (power, ground, and signal return).

                              And before anyone gripes about the complexity of the *computer* that controls the injectors, and reads values from sensors - remember, the computer is what's giving you the extra advantage over the carburetor. You could use a computer to control a carb if you wanted and you'd end up with the same extra complexity, and extra features.

                              I think the only benefit the carb gives over a fuel injector is that "someone did most of your tuning work for you."

                              And to some people, that's very valuable! thus, carbs have their place. Just make sure you're griping about valid issues if you feel the need to complain. I understand both sides.
                              www.realtuners.com - catch the RealTuners Radio Podcast on Youtube, Facebook, iTunes, and anywhere else podcasts are distributed!

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                              • #60
                                nice try but a fail.. how many million part in those chip's in the ecu..

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