Lithium Ion batteries

[SuperBuickGuy]

As I'm in the Seattle area, this stuff fascinates me

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_01_09_2013_p0-534945.xml

with new tech comes new problems.... but it does bring up interesting issues to hot rodders because it's only a matter of time before the price point on these drop to the point where they're in most cars.

Thoughts?

[Deaf Bob]

Maybe they didnt "beef up" the systems downstream (upstream?) of the batteries?
Maybe they didnt go high enough?

Since we use 2- 900-1000 CCA group 31's in tandem, I made the primary cables from 2/0 welding wire and all the switches get bigger wires.. As well as the switches themselves being bigger..

Could be the 787 needs to go "overkill"?

[DanStokes]

LiOn batteries have a bunch of interesting "challenges". A number of companies have been working to develop them for Hybrid and/or all electric vehicle use and the gov has poured research money into this for a number of years (both Republican and Democratic administrations). One of the requirements was that they develop a method to recycle the darn things after they're kaput. The last I heard there still is no way to get the ingredients back out of them. And don't they burn if overtaxed? Thought I remembered that from somewhere.

Don't get me wrong - I wish Boeing all the best and I'll wager they can overcome this snag. There are plenty of very smart folks over there.

Dan

[Thumpin455]

More than a few RC planes have met their demise by fire from LiIon battery packs. They work great and are light, until they dont work anymore and then they might catch fire, might not. Hooked to brushless motors they have a hell of a power to weight advantage in the RC world, but the charging requirements and heat are issues that you need to be aware of. There is no fast charging them like NiCd, at least not that I know of yet, but it isnt hours for the small packs.

[squirrel]

It looks like they are a long ways off from being ready for use in normal cars, to replace the lead acid batteries we now use.

They're lucky it happened on the ground.

[Loren]

...the first commercial aviation application of Li-ion technology...was selected over contemporary nickel-cadmium because it provided 100% greater energy storage capacity and double the energy from the same sized unit

Too good to be true I guess. I think Boeing has been trying to build a flying computer, doing better than if a computer company built a flying computer, but Jeez what an organizational tangle it has been. The huge stock fall is terrible and reflects an already-shaky confidence in a product that cannot fail (unlike a drone, or Tesla roadster which can just come to a silent halt). If they ever have a crash for any reason, they're screwed.

From history:

The Lockheed L-188 Electra is an American turboprop airliner built by Lockheed. First flying in 1957, it was the first large turboprop airliner produced in the United States. Initial sales were good, but after two fatal crashes which prompted an expensive modification program to fix a design defect, no further orders were placed.

(Wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_L-188_Electra )

[DanStokes]

I guess the aircraft industry is just like that. The British Comet met it's demise as a result of square window openings - seems like that would have shown up in prototype testing but it got into production. I don't know who built the Comet (maybe Vickers?) but I think it pretty well screwed up their credibility. My point - errors are not tolerated in the aviation industry.

Edit: Looked it up - it was a DeHavilland.

Dan

[Beagle]

put some Mercury on Aluminum... don't drop your thermometer in a plane?

[SuperBuickGuy]

it's the problem of being on the cutting edge of technology - sometimes you get cut.

or

It's great to be first, however, it's far better to be second if you're looking to be profitable.

[Bob Holmes]

I worked for a guy that said he would never pioneer, but he didn't mind being second.

Braille, XS Power, etc., make Lithium Ion car batteries.

F1 and WEC cars with energy recovery systems are also pushing the technology.

[Barry Donovan]

It looks like they are a long ways off from being ready for use in normal cars, to replace the lead acid batteries we now use.

They're lucky it happened on the ground.

that is an event even in old batteries, a place to vent.
maybe they are just pushing boundaries on new stuff of course.

If I am not mistaken, boeing is the first to guide the invisible monsters to static ports. that is realms with no wires, but energy exists anyway. Cars to this day don't even get it right exactly.

something funny.. I just changed a power steering pump for attacking a carburator. Try telling a normal person about that one.

being such young planes..who knows what has to squeeze out at a molecular level.

you are right..boeing is not stupid.

I'd even target exact brand name of battery if all is foolproof as the article states.

[Caveman Tony]

Boeing always gets better as the production line develops and after the first run of aircraft are out. The first ones off the line seem to be practically hand-made and they get more efficient at it and make engineering and software upgrades.

At my first base, we had the first 10 or so Boeing C-17s off the line, and I could tell you lotsa good stories about how fun those were. One of 'em even had a 'pressurization waiver' because all the gaps and general fit-up were outta whack so bad the thing wouldn't fully pressurize at altitude.

We fixed that one with two weeks of hard work by engineers and 8-10 crack crew chiefs (along with a dump truck load of sealant).

[Thumpin455]

Tony was stationed in Charleston? Cool.

[67pete300]

The Navy has had a lot of bad experience with Li Ion batteries and they are not approved for shipboard use. Still a big problem for solving the UUV (unmanned underwater vehicle) endurance problem. Energy density is good when weight is an issue. But it's bad when it lets go uncontrollably. Our only ASDS (Advanced Swimmer Delivery System aka Seal mini sub) was a total loss in a battery fire. Luckily nobody was injured.

[SuperBuickGuy]

I worked for a guy that said he would never pioneer, but he didn't mind being second.

Braille, XS Power, etc., make Lithium Ion car batteries.

F1 and WEC cars with energy recovery systems are also pushing the technology.

Good for F1 (and WEC), bad for air buses hauling large numbers of people....