Magazine motor builds

[SuperBuickGuy]

Do they really provide any kind of helpful information?

optimized numbers, using parts which may or may not be necessary, and could be simply advertising for the shop-of-the-week

This came up after someone was asking on another forum about how to build the 412 hp crate motor in Popular Hotrodding (they started with a 290 hp crate)... I say, that deduct the magazine hype numbers, and it's really a 312 hp real-world-motor with junk heads, pistons that you can hear ticking as they're about to go off, and rod bolts that stretch better than my Uncle Bob's suspenders....

have you learned anything from a magazine motor build?

[Scott Liggett]

I know they use the same motor on the dyno a bazillion times, then they stick it in an editor's car. One of the old dyno mules is now in McGann's new old chevy pickup.

Sure, they may get a carb or intake or distributor from an advertiser to use which the advertiser helps pay for the dyno time for a pretty pic of their part. As for them fudging horsepower numbers; I dont think they really do that. But, that engine that makes big hp numbers on an engine dyno may be a total turd in a street car. These days it doesnt help to fudge numbers as the pros who also read the mag will call BS quite loudly.

Even Jeff Smith admitted that he overcammed a low compression crate engine before sticking in his '67 el camino before last year's anti tour. It drove like crap.

[Whelk]

Do they really provide any kind of helpful information?

It really depends where you're starting from. If you never built an engine, you at get an idea how things ought to work. If you've been wrenching at more than a basic level, then probably not so much.

[Thumpin455]

I dont get much from most magazines, mainly because I have absolutely no urge whatsoever to build a small chevy for anything other than a truck. The occasional Ford articles are all W based and I have C engines, and the Pontiac engines in anything other than HPP are way below what I can do with mine. In HPP it varies, sometimes its worthwhile, other times not so much.

If the dyno sheet starts at 3500 and goes up, you know it is over cammed for a street engine. Its rare outside BOP that you get an engine that the dyno wont hold below 3000, at least in N/A magazine builds.

[Barry Donovan]

It really depends where you're starting from. If you never built an engine, you at get an idea how things ought to work. If you've been wrenching at more than a basic level, then probably not so much.

that is friendlier than what I was going to say.

I looked to them on someone elses dime, never bought a magazine.

as soon as I see babbles about compression numbers...

I am done with article. chambers bigger than a softball cut in half is a crock of shit...
and there is the brand name fans that defend even the bad versions of engines built one year as big.
my first engine shook a mobile home park...and cave din the crank.

knowng that line first hand... it is beyond a magazine, and less than an altered fuel junkie.

I even find my likes hidden in japanese versions of junk.

[redneckjoe69]

most of the magazines seem like one big blog today. IDK if they fudge numbers or not? i do participate in some of the forums, and you rarely, if ever, see any of the magazine people comment or interact.
i trust more information from sites like this one, books, or people with experience that i can ask questions to.

[Monk]

In my case they sort did provide some value.
When Joe Sherman did his monster stroked and poked 348 build
in Hot Rod November 2009.......Jim Evans referenced several aspects
of the build.........and wanted to match or best his numbers.

The info on the head flow gave us some numbers to shoot for.
The article also had the new Stef oil pan for W motors.
He did install a trick Motor Sports vacuum pump which we did not........I'm sure most
all the parts were donated for the article.
One of the 409 guys purchased the engine I think last year.

[Beagle]

SBG, I get something from Engine Masters. I also like reading Richard Holdener's stuff. He did a "ultimate guide to cylinder heads" for MMFF a while ago where they put something like 18 sets of cylinder heads on 3 different short blocks (302,347,408) and it was very informative. It's on AFR's website if you are interested (AFR looked very good in the tests)

I'm pretty sure that Westech's dyno is a happy dyno, but when you do parts comparisons back to back, you get happy numbers for both parts and you can get a decent idea of what you are thinking about buying. I don't spend a lot of time trying to duplicate their builds because frankly, I rarely see anything with a cam I would use. Holdener's SBF stuff is about what I would run though. 224-232* @ .050 cams in a lot of his tests.

[squirrel]

I got more from the scant technical specs in the new Hot Rod article covering the 32 cars on drag week daily driver class.

[Monk]

It was almost always my assumption that many of these builds
were out of reach for the normal guy.
Again, my impression, the project was probably getting all the trick
stuff free......which again put it out of reach.

Sort of like the old Better Homes & Garden mag........good to look at but nothing the average person could afford.

I guess there would be some take aways from the articles that one
could apply to their project.
Seems to me the engine projects from back in the '60's & '70's were more realistic.

Just my 2 cents.

[squirrel]

Seems to me the engine projects from back in the '60's & '70's were more realistic.

yup, because back then there were no high buck aftermarket blocks, rods, heads, cranks, pans, etc. Just a few intakes, headers, cams, valvetrains, and pistons.

Things have certainly changed. But you can still do a low buck build and make good power, it's just hard to sell ads in a magazine that way.

[tardis454]

There's a lot of good information in those builds but the average Joe doesn't have thousands of dollars falling out of his ass to build a magazine motor.

Horsepower TV built a junkyard Vortec motor with 'no machine work'. It was a swell project until they opened the Summit catalog & blew $6000+ on parts. Hot rodding is not about how much money you spend, or the brand name on the part, it's about using what you have, "your brain", & whatever parts you have laying around.

One of the old school guys at the junkyard told me a long time ago... "you don't buy a car son, ya build it & your cars only as good as whatcha start with & whatcha know.. You don't need to spend a buncha money on parts, you just need to spend a buncha time in the garage..."

Old school hot rodders didn't have money, they had brains & an 'imagination'(this is a critical element). I have many years of machine shop experience thanks to Dad putting me in front of a turret lathe when I was a pup. I also have a good idea how most stuff works & how to make stuff work if I have to. Granted some stuff is easier to buy then build, but someone with an imagination can just as easily make what they need or make parts from a different application work for next to nothing.

It's not about dollars, it's about sense...

[dieselgeek]

I'm pretty sure that Westech's dyno is a happy dyno

Westech's dyno isn't "happier" than any other, from my experinence engine dynos are all very close to each other no matter what brand, so long as (a) they're calibrated and (b) the barometer and thermometer generating their correction factors are correct.

I don't sell parts, or ECUs, and really I don't even try to sell EFI tuning (I turn down a lot more work than I have time to take on), I see myself as a person who is brought in to do my best to optimize any combination and spot problems, based on that here is my take on why you guys believe places like Westech or other magazine builds generate better numbers than the average builder can do on his project:

It's because Westech has guys like Steve Brule and Ernie Mena overseeing the builds and dyno operation, and those guys have something that seems undervalued in this world: EXPERIENCE. There's a reason that names like Barton, Vizard, Vrbancic, Brule, Kaase, Bischoff, Boggs, etc. command top dollar for their builds and that is because they've done this thousands of times. I have many stories similar to this one: Ray Barton takes a look at a throttle body spacer, decides to spend 5 minutes with a die grinder (most of us would look at his subtle mod and think "why?") and the engine picked up over 10% power on its next pull. A few weeks ago working on a BBC for Vizard, I heard David say "Put a 3/4 inch spacer under that EFI throttle body!" and the engine picked up +40hp on the next pull with no other changes! The deal is, when you're putting an engine together it's not just a pile of Legos, there are a hundred different little things that a builder can do to pick up power percentages here and there that are either too detailed or minor to put in the magazine, that guys like you and me and SBG aren't experienced enough to know about. All those little details add up, and that's a big reason you see those names above on the sides of winning racecars.

My advice is, don't look at a build that you believe makes more power than it should and write that off as fraud, try to figure out how/why they achieved those results and work harder to do the same on YOUR next build. Keeping an open mind like that makes each of us faster learners and keeps us out of a rut. It also keeps us from sounding like crybaby d-bags

[SuperBuickGuy]

I got more from the scant technical specs in the new Hot Rod article covering the 32 cars on drag week daily driver class.

I think this is absolutely true - go see what people are running, it's where the BS stops. Maybe that's where they should do articles, ghost write for people who go fast; yeah, some don't want to share, but given the opportunity most everyone wants to be heard - and that would be informative.

I don't think it helps newbies - I think it gives them expectations for hp levels that are not right. I should do a poll - how many people's first motor build met their expectations? with a follow up question of who built their motor following a magazine's specs and were disappointed?

I also said "optimize" optimize means they spend 3 days on a dyno running a motor to get that last ounce of hp. 99.9999% of people don't have the equipment, or even the desire for that last 25 - they drive their cars, tuning a car for a specific altitude, temperature, and humidity - most times - means it only runs at that specific number and runs like crap all other 364 days per year. I don't know these writers personally, but I do interact with them here - and I do NOT get the sense that they aren't telling the truth about the numbers. And this isn't a revelation - they say these very words

Following on the last 25 hp - I also hate the articles where they gain less than 25 hp.... in the real world that means that whatever the part is really won't give you anything (see optimization above). Yet how many have bought those parts? I know I'm guilty of this one on more than one occasion - makes me feel ripped off.

[Monk]

I can relate to DG's post.
When Jim Evans dynoed the W motor.......he did 6 pulls.
Each time he would change something up......carb spacers, carbs etc.

Lastly ........screw hp.........how much torque did I make?