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Well, i can still build Holley carbs

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  • Well, i can still build Holley carbs

    I pulled out my Holley pile, found the 780 main body and base plate, then got the right metering plates for it. Drilled a few holes, jetted it up, and made the squirter bigger, and poof! It runs E85 now.

    Idles better than the Qjet, starts a tad easier, but will undoubtedly burn more fuel. The idle sounds great, and man does that carb sing when you whack it.

    Right now I am working on the exhaust, putting the 3" stuff under it and finding mufflers that will fit it. Then I need to drill someholes and mount the wideband O2 in the collectors. yeah I got one a while back, now I can do some tuning on this thing. I figured the Holley will work better for now, and I need one to put on the 65 LeMans anyway. Two birds one big stick sort of thing.

    Will see how well the carb runs once the O2 is in it. Might end up doing more of these things for people, and definitely going to science out the Qjets, so i can do any of them, not just the APT carbs.

    video tomorrow, or the next day. Lots to do yet, and its open exhaust right now or I would have made one already.

  • #2
    Converting a gas QJet to E85 would be a bigger challenge than a Holley.

    If you took pics of the work you did, please post a thread on how to do it. I'm interested in seeing how it's done.
    BS'er formally known as Rebeldryver

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    • #3
      If I were at the point of bumping my compression up from 9 to at least 12 I would love to have you build me one. but with my 16 gallon tank and my 60 mile round trip to work 5 to 6 day a week I think I'd have to add a third fill up. Plus the loss in power till the compression got bumped up. But the other day, E85 was a dollar cheaper. I think it's cool you know how to do it.
      Previously HoosierL98GTA

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      • #4
        Originally posted by HoosierL98GTA View Post
        If I were at the point of bumping my compression up from 9 to at least 12 I would love to have you build me one. but with my 16 gallon tank and my 60 mile round trip to work 5 to 6 day a week I think I'd have to add a third fill up. Plus the loss in power till the compression got bumped up. But the other day, E85 was a dollar cheaper. I think it's cool you know how to do it.

        I wonder why you think there is a power loss when you run ethanol. There is a reason it is banned from some competition, like F.A.S.T. and other classes. It makes more power even in low compression engines. It has its own oxygen, so it is going to make more power even if you tune more for mileage. I raised the compression to 13:1 for mileage, not so much for power, but the power is nice with that much squeeze.

        Around 13:1 is the break even point for mileage, and my 455 did better on E85 than the low compression one with a smaller cam and less airflow did on 87 octane with no ethanol in it. So on a Pontiac, the break even point is somewhere south of 13:1. This engine isnt about power, but it still makes a ton of it and 20mpg last year on an 'illegal' drive is pretty good for just throwing it together.

        It is incredibly easy to build a Holley for E85. Open up the idle restriction, put a larger squirter on it, jet it up considerably, and open up the bleeds. That is about all it takes. The Qjet takes more effort, but its still rather simple. The main problem with the Qjet I did for this engine is getting the TV cable for the 700R4 to work with it. It has the wrong throttle arm for the 700R4, otherwise it works great.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Thumpin455 View Post
          I wonder why you think there is a power loss when you run ethanol. There is a reason it is banned from some competition, like F.A.S.T. and other classes. It makes more power even in low compression engines. It has its own oxygen, so it is going to make more power even if you tune more for mileage. I raised the compression to 13:1 for mileage, not so much for power, but the power is nice with that much squeeze.

          Around 13:1 is the break even point for mileage, and my 455 did better on E85 than the low compression one with a smaller cam and less airflow did on 87 octane with no ethanol in it. So on a Pontiac, the break even point is somewhere south of 13:1. This engine isnt about power, but it still makes a ton of it and 20mpg last year on an 'illegal' drive is pretty good for just throwing it together.

          It is incredibly easy to build a Holley for E85. Open up the idle restriction, put a larger squirter on it, jet it up considerably, and open up the bleeds. That is about all it takes. The Qjet takes more effort, but its still rather simple. The main problem with the Qjet I did for this engine is getting the TV cable for the 700R4 to work with it. It has the wrong throttle arm for the 700R4, otherwise it works great.
          If I'm reading him correctly he said power lost UNTILL the compression got bumped up..

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          • #6
            I only have book smarts on this subject ( Hot Rod magazine article ) which said 25% less BTU . To me that reads as bang. And they said you could get it back by upping the compression . The brother in law has a flex fuel Suburban and he says he gets 23% less with E85 . But yeah , you've actually been down this road . If you say it can be done . I believe you. Would there be any winter drivablity problems?
            Previously HoosierL98GTA

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            • #7
              Originally posted by NewEnglandRaceFan View Post
              If I'm reading him correctly he said power lost UNTILL the compression got bumped up..
              He did and he is mistaken. Ethanol makes more power than gas. Period. Doesnt matter how much compression it has. There is no power loss unless you have it running way too lean, or so rich it wont warm up and fuel is nearly hydro locking the engine. Someone somewhere is claiming a power loss, but it is proven to not be the case. If they are losing power, they have no idea how to tune the thing. Every car I have run it in has picked up power. Sometime when I get the chance I will take the 98 Formula to the track and get back to back results with 93 octane, and 50% ethanol an the rest 87 octane. I know it runs harder with the 50% mix in it, because it has traction issues with a full tank.

              BTUs are a measure of how long it takes a particular fuel to heat one pound of water one degree. it says absolutely nothing about the work capable from each fuel. Gasoline loses over 805 of its thermal energy to waste heat, the reason why ethanol engines run cooler is because there is far less heat wasted due to how it burns.

              Flex fuel vehicles are not optimized for ethanol, they can simply run it. The tune on FFVs is not that great, and a bit of work with them can improve things considerably. The main problem is you are holding the fuel back by running it in a low compression engine because it is handicapped for gasoline. You just arent working it hard enough, but it results in more work with less wasted. If you heat ethanol in the fuel rails, so it vaporizes instantly when it hits the intake port, you can get better mileage than a diesel with similar or more power. If E85 is a dollar cheaper then even losing 30% would make sense. Where it really shines is with performance engines that require 93 or more octane. Price some race gas and compare it to what E85 goes for, and then realize you will make more power with the ethanol, your engine will last longer, and you can run the timing the engine actually wants.

              My 70 GTO started in 35F last year, and my 79 Formula wont start if its colder than 65F and it runs on 93. It might take a little more cranking, but it starts. Its not like most carbs start well in the cold anyway. The 1050 Dominator on the Formula hates to start if it isnt warm out.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Thumpin455 View Post
                He did and he is mistaken. Ethanol makes more power than gas. Period. Doesnt matter how much compression it has. There is no power loss unless you have it running way too lean, or so rich it wont warm up and fuel is nearly hydro locking the engine. Someone somewhere is claiming a power loss, but it is proven to not be the case. If they are losing power, they have no idea how to tune the thing. Every car I have run it in has picked up power. Sometime when I get the chance I will take the 98 Formula to the track and get back to back results with 93 octane, and 50% ethanol an the rest 87 octane. I know it runs harder with the 50% mix in it, because it has traction issues with a full tank.

                BTUs are a measure of how long it takes a particular fuel to heat one pound of water one degree. it says absolutely nothing about the work capable from each fuel. Gasoline loses over 805 of its thermal energy to waste heat, the reason why ethanol engines run cooler is because there is far less heat wasted due to how it burns.

                Flex fuel vehicles are not optimized for ethanol, they can simply run it. The tune on FFVs is not that great, and a bit of work with them can improve things considerably. The main problem is you are holding the fuel back by running it in a low compression engine because it is handicapped for gasoline. You just arent working it hard enough, but it results in more work with less wasted. If you heat ethanol in the fuel rails, so it vaporizes instantly when it hits the intake port, you can get better mileage than a diesel with similar or more power. If E85 is a dollar cheaper then even losing 30% would make sense. Where it really shines is with performance engines that require 93 or more octane. Price some race gas and compare it to what E85 goes for, and then realize you will make more power with the ethanol, your engine will last longer, and you can run the timing the engine actually wants.

                My 70 GTO started in 35F last year, and my 79 Formula wont start if its colder than 65F and it runs on 93. It might take a little more cranking, but it starts. Its not like most carbs start well in the cold anyway. The 1050 Dominator on the Formula hates to start if it isnt warm out.
                ethnol has a lower btu rating than gas so. it makes less power until you BUILD for it's use.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by NewEnglandRaceFan View Post
                  ethnol has a lower btu rating than gas so. it makes less power until you BUILD for it's use.
                  Read it again, this time for comprehension. BTU means absolutely nothing in regards to how much power it makes.

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                  • #10
                    High Performance Pontiac Magazine did a dyno test on an 8:1 compression 455 SD a couple years ago, it picked up power the more ethanol they added. it picked up even with just 10%, and with 15% as well, but the most with E85. A 455 with 8:1 will run easily on 87 octane and not knock or detonate, so it sure as hell isnt using all the capabilities of E85.



                    Rockett Brand Base Fuel
                    QFT carburetor, 69/79 jets, 32 degrees BTDC
                    Average power from 3,500 to 5,000 rpm is 399.78 hp and 496.29 lb-ft of torque

                    RPM TQ HP BSFC
                    3,000 528.5 301.9 0.51
                    3,100 527.7 311.5 0.48
                    3,200 527.1 321.1 0.47
                    3,300 525.2 330.0 0.46
                    3,400 524.1 339.3 0.47
                    3,500 523.6 349.0 0.47
                    3,600 519.7 356.2 0.47
                    3,700 517.8 364.8 0.47
                    3,800 515.3 372.8 0.46
                    3,900 515.6 382.8 0.46
                    4,000 511.5 389.6 0.47
                    4,100 509.9 398.0 0.46
                    4,200 505.6 404.4 0.46
                    4,300 498.1 407.8 0.47
                    4,400 491.7 411.9 0.47
                    4,500 486.3 416.7 0.47
                    4,600 480.9 421.1 0.47
                    4,700 475.8 425.8 0.47
                    4,800 470.0 429.6 0.48
                    4,900 462.0 431.1 0.48
                    5,000 456.8 434.8 0.48
                    5,100 449.1 436.1 0.49
                    5,200 442.2 437.8 0.49
                    5,300 433.6 437.6 0.50

                    Rockett Brand E85
                    QFT E85 carburetor, 78/88 jets, 32 degrees BTDC
                    Average power from 3,500 to 5,000 rpm is 408.38 hp and 507.07 lb-ft of torque.
                    RPM TQ HP BSFC
                    3,000 547.4 312.7 0.68
                    3,100 548.6 323.8 0.66
                    3,200 547.1 333.4 0.65
                    3,300 544.3 342.0 0.66
                    3,400 540.0 349.5 0.66
                    3,500 537.0 357.8 0.66
                    3,600 532.7 365.1 0.66
                    3,700 529.6 373.1 0.66
                    3,800 527.5 381.7 0.66
                    3,900 526.8 391.2 0.66
                    4,000 525.2 400.0 0.65
                    4,100 521.2 406.9 0.66
                    4,200 515.3 412.1 0.67
                    4,300 508.8 416.6 0.67
                    4,400 503.1 421.5 0.67
                    4,500 496.4 425.3 0.67
                    4,600 490.0 429.2 0.67
                    4,700 483.7 432.9 0.68
                    4,800 478.0 436.9 0.69
                    4,900 472.6 440.9 0.69
                    5,000 465.1 442.8 0.69
                    5,100 457.8 444.6 0.69
                    5,200 448.7 444.2 0.69

                    Keep in mind that most of the power gains with ethanol come between idle and 4500 rpm, since they started the test at 3000, they are missing out on most of the increase.

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                    • #11
                      Here it is, idling and a couple revs. The mufflers had some water in them from sitting around. Its still cold and doesnt have a choke, but it runs pretty good. Its 70F outside today, not what you would call hot at all.

                      Last edited by Thumpin455; July 4, 2013, 06:26 PM.

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                      • #12
                        In other news- water shot out of an exhaust pipe f'n hurts.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by 98ciHemi View Post
                          In other news- water shot out of an exhaust pipe f'n hurts.
                          You wouldnt stand in front of a rifle barrel?....

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                          • #14
                            you pick up e.t. ?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SpiderGearsMan View Post
                              you pick up e.t. ?
                              No idea, it hasnt been down a track in anger since 1997. Isnt going to go either, its a cruiser engine, not a drag engine. It never has hooked up, spun every set of slicks I put under it with the mild pump gas 455. This thing is even worse for smoking the hides.

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