Are you only a "real" car guy if you turn your own wrenches?

[Thumpin455]

Sorry, but Squirrel has posed what in logic is called a "false dichotomy." It's not "either or" [mutual exclusivity]. It's "both and."

What if Larson had been born in Cuba? He could have an ocean of innate talent (a blessing, btw) an unlimited capacity for hard work, and an Everest of determination, but the situation in which he was "planted" would more times than not desperately affect the eventual outcome.

Most certainly Larson has been blessed with location, talent, family support, good health, technical education opportunities, friendships and associations, commercial opportunity and many other things. He's privileged enough to live in a country that still sort of rewards free enterprise. And he's worked hard enough to take advantage of his situational advantages over a bushman in Africa or a scooter mechanic in Vietnam.

I can't believe this remotely controversial. (Apparently civics education in this nation is in profound decline)

Not quite a false dichotomy, because Troy, for instance, did not have lots of connections. The most he had was a body shop to work in at night, and he built the green 60 Chevy in his off hours and made a name for himself. The guy got connections from doing that car, he didnt have them prior to it being shown. Everything he has done since has been impressive even if I didnt like it, because the work and execution is outstanding.

So even if he was born in Cuba, if he had built that 60 and taken it to the shows he got noticed in, he would have still made the connections.

Larson, well that is different. Some people have more to start than others, but to say they only have something spectacular because they started off rich or with someone special in their corner is to either be ignorant of what it takes to achieve what he has, or its just jealousy that the critic has not achieved greatness so they blame it on where they started.

If someone has the talent, drive, and unyielding passion to do something, it doesnt matter if they grow up in nowhere Nebraska, they will achieve their goals and turn their dreams into reality through hard work and determination. Someone who does not have the talent, might not make it, but they can still achieve greatness if they make good choices and never stop or get distracted.

[groucho]

WTF's a dichotomy. Yess, I R woopid

[Deaf Bob]

WTF's a dichotomy. Yess, I R woopid

Division of a whole into 2 non-overlapping parts..

Car guy = car buyer OR car builder. Not both..

Squirrel's right.. It was read as dichotomy.. He didn't specify it as...

Gots me wondering.. Why can't you be both buyer and builder?
I know I'm not a painter, so I buy the paint job..
Do everything else...

It's all classifications of names... Means nothing really..

[Scott Liggett]

Division of a whole into 2 non-overlapping parts..

Car guy = car buyer OR car builder. Not both..

Squirrel's right.. It was read as dichotomy.. He didn't specify it as...

Gots me wondering.. Why can't you be both buyer and builder?
I know I'm not a painter, so I buy the paint job..
Do everything else...

It's all classifications of names... Means nothing really..

If you watch Fast and Loud, the two guys offer both sides, one buys, one builds. Often a good relationship in a business, have a good salesman and have a good builder of the product. It's also the difference between artist and their broker. One is good at creating, one is good at making money.

[Beagle]

WTF's a dichotomy. Yess, I R woopid

I'm sometimes a little surprised that a guy who likes to take apart mechanical things and put them back together doesn't appreciate taking a word apart and gets mad about people who do. The funny thing about this word is it is two pieces:

Di - as in Disect / Divide / Dilute ... basically, two pieces. In this case it's from Greek Dicha
Tome - section / cut

Translated, two halves, as in Yes or No... it's either this way or that ... which in the context of this argument I don't necessarily agree with. None of the guys who were mentioned as exemplary car builders got it without working their ass off for it, connections or not.

Bluedog or whatever that kids name was on American Hotrod is an example of somebody who had a great opportunity to work with Boyd and said "F you, I'm not doing it your way" ... I haven't heard of him since. All Boyd wanted him to do was "ruin" some gennie rails by boxing them for safety.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=dichotomy

[Deaf Bob]

Here in the PNW, there is a "beef" (for lack of better word) as to what a "chain and go" car really is..
Some say it is just that.. Chains hold the doors shut, bumpers on.. As well as the hood and trunk..
Some shows allow all thread thru the fenders and hood.. Some even by the core support thru the frame and allow bumpers to be welded on.. In my opinion, that is not a chain and go type of car..

The builds we do involve body mount bolts replaced, steering modifications (Freightliner shaft and joints) slap shifters that go to L and R with a P lock out.. And more.. Some call that full weld, others call it unified, still others call it modified..
It's all derby cars, they are merely names..

[Beagle]

so if you just chain and go you're not a real derby guy?

[Deaf Bob]

so if you just chain and go you're not a real derby guy?

Still a derby guy, not a builder!

[silver_bullet]

we tend to be firm believers in the built rather than bought for ourselves, but are more than willing to accept the bought crowd unless the offending party tries the wave money, or trophies in our faces... we have friends/relatives that ask us to repair their vehicles, and will continue to work on their vehicles for them... I am, however, a lot more pleased to help out those who are willing to stick around and learn more about their vehicle and how to fix it! we barter services with a nephew that is in collision repair classes at the local college, and are the first to admit that there are specialists that will be required for the quality of ride one may desire... that being said, I believe that a measure of "sweat equity" is a bonus in any vehicle I see at a derby, show or cruise! look at the rat rod movement, and you will find innovation albeit I do not care for the faux patina crowd... I don't care for the tuners and bikers either, but they are still gearheads as are we... so, does it matter whether its built or bought? I can answer only that it depends on the situation...

[38P]

Wilson Wilson, Jr.** speaks

**http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0044497/?ref_=tt_cl_t1

I didn't pose a false dichotomy...you just read it that way.

Originally Posted by The Outsider:

Trepanier, Larson, Swope, Stroud, Foose and many others have accomplished a lot, to which respect is proper. But do such opportunity, privilege and blessings really define automotive enthusiasm?

Response by Squirrel:
Uh....those names to me sound like innate skill combined with dogged determination and unimaginable hard work. Not opportunity, privilege and blessings. Not by a long shot.

Beating a dead horse here, but the false dichotomy is:

The success of Trepanier, Larson, Swope, Stroud, Foose and many others is from:

A) "opportunity, privilege and blessings"

OR

B) "innate skill combined with dogged determination and unimaginable hard work."


The correct answer is "all of the above."

Apparently it's "privilege" that's hanging everyone up. That's just not egalitarian enough, I guess.

Privilege doesn't necessarily mean being the scion of a millionaire. In the global context it can be something as simple as being born and raised in a stable, relatively free place where one isn't simply fighting every day for food, clothing and shelter, and has meaningful opportunities for what Maslow described as "self-actualization." ( http://psychology.about.com/od/theor...chyneeds_2.htm )



Example: Is Trepanier "privileged?" Perhaps not initially (other than perhaps being a free American instead of scraping by in civil war environment in some third world hell-hole . . . or Detroit . . . .) .



But certainly the fame Trepanier achieved through seizing opportunities and using the blessings of his possibly innate talent in determined hard work has resulted in the privilege of notoriety . . . which opens doors (and checkbooks) that allows him to pursue his art vocationally.

See how all these elements build upon each other? See how they're not mutually exclusive?

What about Foose? Son of a legendary car builder in his own right. (That puts him well ahead of the son of a bus-riding welfare mom . . . a form of "privilege" and "blessing") Seized the exclusive opportunity to go to a prestigious, highly-selective automotive design school. Through hard work, he received the opportunity to work with Coddington . . . . Certainly blessings and, to a certain extent, privileges, even if they're earned.

[Bob Holmes]

Ok, I'm conflicted.

Is it okay that I want to checkbook all the repairs on the daily drivers so that I can spend all the free time on the "high fun quotient" vehicles?

Is that an acceptable dichotomy?

Does this post mean that I'm only on Maslow's fourth level, or is the desire to spend my disposable time on race and hobby cars proof of my advancement to the fifth?

I feel an existential crisis coming on...

As to Scott's original question, my take is if you enjoy automobiles, and your enjoyment isn't rooted in your desire to exclude, then you are a car guy.

[SpiderGearsMan]

foose's story ...boyd dies in the end

[groucho]

So, are you really a stoner if you don't grow your own weed/pot/dope?

[Beagle]

So, are you really a stoner if you don't grow your own weed/pot/dope?

Medical users purchase according to what I hear... but I understand you can grow 99 plants in your neck of the weeds...errr, woods.

[Barry Donovan]

real builders, ingenuity from nothing..fixing oem fairy tales...

start building because mom was a welfare bus rider.

the fooses with crayons of many colors had a lot of time to draw imagination..

I am glad the two worlds mix up.

wimps would get wimpier, strength would get stronger.. then that old holy something happens forcing everyone to have nothing...because they all wanted something, without working together.

front wheel drive? I'd start the scariest holocaust known to man if in the wrong position of leadership.

I'll just keep building.
don't call me a car guy. I learned it all the hard way, military only wrote me as formal.

I'd let foose do the fancy work under the hood and paint...those details are almost unimaginable.