turbos and quench - open chamber heads

[BigAL]

Put the plate for the methanol/water injection before the IAT or after? I would expect the methanol to cool things down... E85 definitely will.

After.

[Beagle]

I'll have to math it out but the spacers would be "made" and they should have room for an injector. The choke point is still the intake port. It would have some room for a transition taper from the manifold to the head. I don't think Turbo'd piecemeal junk motors care that much about the manifolding versus an NA motor's. I need to go play with a CAD program but I think the injectors would fit in the adapter plates.

Put the plate for the methanol/water injection before the IAT or after? I would expect the methanol to cool things down... E85 definitely will.

[38P]

when are coyote's going to be cheap at the Junkyard?

For that matter - what about 6.2?

Estimating from the natural vehicle life cycle, I'd say the prices ought to start coming down about 2018 on the 5.0 TiVCT. That's when supplies should start exceeding demand.

I'm assuming this based on my observations about the "LESS" and other late model engines. Enough 5.0 vehicles will have been wrecked, theft-recovered, or otherwise used-up from fleet use to populate the used parts market in the seven-year range. The attrition of privately-owned vehicles, of course, tends to take a little longer. So salvage prices probably won't make a big move until 2023-2026.

Complicating this analysis is the reported 45% "take rate" for EcoBoost V6s, which is cannibalizing 5.0 TiVCT sales.

This generation of Ford V8s simply won't be as common as the last one, notwithstanding that they build about 3/4 of a million F-series trucks a year. The loss of the Panther platform and the competition from Mopar and Holden . . . er . . . Chevrolet for the smallish pony car niche means they're just not building as many Coyotes as they did modulars. That factor suggests prices will not fall as far as they did with some of the cheap-as-dirt modulars.

Further complicating this is the market penetration lead that the "LESS" has and the continuing "retrofitablity" issue. Prices might fall faster if Coyotes don't garner enough "early adopters" or the aftermarket continues to fall behind in development of the pieces necessary to swaps.

Finally, the relentless march of CAFE standards over the next ten years will undoubtedly increase the prices they charge for new V8s (regardless of brand), which will lower the "take rate" and ultimately reduce the supply of used engines.

It remains unknown whether or not the continued "graying" of the sport will drive demand lower (i.e. fewer people building cars).

The 6.2 is a tougher problem because it doesn't seem to be very common at all.

[milner351]

The aftermarket is finally making nice aluminum heads for Clevo's - and the recipe is out there for a stroked M400 - it could be a dare to be different spoiler - but would still probably cost 2x the mighty LS for the same power output.

when are coyote's going to be cheap at the Junkyard?

For that matter - what about 6.2?

[38P]

that speedway track T kit keeps haunting me - knowing full well the $3500 buy in isn't "complete" but it's light and cheap compared to almost any alternative.

In keeping with my former screen name, an early Ford frame with the minimal body work of a traditional speedster (or a single-seat "torpedo" tail speedster) wakes me up in the middle of the night . . . .




I could have bought a complete, factory-style (just seats and a tank) 1916 T Speedster once for $3,500 (Now THAT would be a Drag Week adventure car!)

A similar speedster to the one that got away . . . .

[38P]

On injector placement, I'd start by reading what A. Graham Bell writes in his book Forced Induction Performance Tuning.

To oversimplify, you want 'em close to the valves for low speed/economy work but further away to maximize vaporization cooling at high r.p.m.

Staged injectors are about the only reasonable way to do this on a street car. Using carb terms, the "primaries" go where the stock port EFI injectors go and the honkin' "secondaries" reside high up over the ram tubes/runners. Probably way more complexity than necessary unless you're really intent on pushing the limits of the block . . . .

[milner351]

that speedway track T kit keeps haunting me - knowing full well the $3500 buy in isn't "complete" but it's light and cheap compared to almost any alternative.

[38P]

There's a lot of talk about injector placement and ultimate power in the EMC type / max effort world. I wouldn't think anything like this would be a "grocery getter" so I am not sure I would worry terribly about off idle mixture quality. It would take 4 HUGE injectors in a TBI setup though, and that would kind of bother me. Let's say it could make 700 hp "in theory".... 60 pound injectors x 8 at 50 psi would be the smallest I would consider. Bigger if E85 is used.

The tunnel ram is for a Boss 302 so it needs adapter plates to raise it up from 8.2 to 9.5 deck height. I need to draw it up and see if it will have enough room for the injectors.

Definitely EFI though... use an Explorer trigger wheel / stub dizzy to convert it to coil packs.

what to put it in... A T-BUCKET. Just for Chad.

Any way you could combine a T-bucket with a Delorean . . . two birds with one stone?

I'm getting less excited about your theoretical intake. Unless you make the adaptors, my recollection is that they're kind of pricey (example: http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/...apter_kit.html ).

A Boss 302 intake has 4V, not 2V-sized Cleveland ports.

Factor in the cost of adding bungs (assuming some outside paid help) and what you'd possibly get by selling the unaltered Boss 302 tunnel ram, and you're a long way toward buying a proper EFI intake, such as the one I suggested above.

[Beagle]

There's a lot of talk about injector placement and ultimate power in the EMC type / max effort world. I wouldn't think anything like this would be a "grocery getter" so I am not sure I would worry terribly about off idle mixture quality. It would take 4 HUGE injectors in a TBI setup though, and that would kind of bother me. Let's say it could make 700 hp "in theory".... 60 pound injectors x 8 at 50 psi would be the smallest I would consider. Bigger if E85 is used.

The tunnel ram is for a Boss 302 so it needs adapter plates to raise it up from 8.2 to 9.5 deck height. I need to draw it up and see if it will have enough room for the injectors.

Definitely EFI though... use an Explorer trigger wheel / stub dizzy to convert it to coil packs.

what to put it in... A T-BUCKET. Just for Chad.

[38P]

Considering that the average TBI engine was 220 h.p. or less, and TBI has been on the outs now for nearly a decade or more, it might be hard to source enough lbs/hr fuel flow for what Beagle's bench racing here. I'm guessing he's shooting for at least 100 h.p./liter . . . .

BTW, nearly every TBI I see at the local self-service yards has already been partially raided for the big injectors . . . the pickers just leave the rest of it for the melt.

[milner351]

There's a guy on the falcon boards that has a pair of 350 truck TBI's (I believe, maybe K car stuff?) on a vintage low rise dual quad intake all run with megasquirt, he loves it for the street and gets probably twice the fuel economy of traditional dual quads (claimed 20 on the freeway).

Given the complication and cost of a port injection fuel system, the lower pressure TBI set up seems like a nice compromise if a wet manifold is not a killer for your combination, and EFI is your quest. Remember how cheap randal EFI'd his tbird?

[38P]

I'd run the cheapest throttle body that would flow what I needed . . . not a lot o' power there, IMO. (On a real low-buck set-up, why not score a few dirt-cheap JY TBs, rig an old-school progressive linkage (e.g. early 60s Stromberg 97s) and make a simple mounting plate, with induction tubes similar to how they used to run VS-57 Paxtons on a tri-power)



Now THAT is bench racing! Made me think... 2 x 460 EFI TB's. Great idea. It'd look retarded too. I think a box on top of the 2x4 setup already there would be easier, front facing TB.

Maybe I've been spending too much warping my grey matter with vintage pre-'62 stuff lately, but I think a trio of nearly free EFI throttle bodies hooked up to a blow-through set-up would look out-o-the-box bitchin. And it might just improve throttle sensitivity over a huge 90+mm single blade the catalog/credit card builders seem to favor.

The 460 TBs might be OK too (although probably not as cheap, easy to score, or as adaptable to a progressive linkage), but I'd forgo the "gooseneck" and just mount 'em with a flat adaptor plate. Something fabbed-up and functional on top of the mill is always going to impress the thinking Bangshifter, unless it looks like Boogerman bird-crapped it while sleepwalking . . .

Now cooking up a cheap and light plenum that will hold the force of a couple of atmos (need some safety margin) . . . .

[38P]

I need a 6-71 for the pickup.... no make that an effin' 8-71.

No you don't, Mr. Rockefeller. That traditional GMC blower stuff is for deep-pocketed class racers and fairgrounds types . . .

Save some coin . . . Get a brace of Eatons at the JY/eBay and weld-up a little "A" box plenum . . . or a cheapish truck turbo . . . .

[Beagle]

I'd bolt it together, damn the math, feed it a steady diet of E-85 and have fun until it decides to die.... IF it decides to die.

That being said, I need a 6-71 for the pickup.... no make that an effin' 8-71.

I missed the E85. Getting dense. Urban dictionary lists 85 as "absolute avalance of bullshit" which this pretty much is. I'm tripping over some of this shit, it's gotta go. I've been trying to figure out what to do with the 95 Lightning too - it's days as a pickup truck are pretty much over.

It'd be fun to do for the hell of it. Need little black car to move on it's own which is getting closer finally and then maybe give this some thought.

[Beagle]

Open chamber Cleveos have the rep of being prone to knock, even before you start compressing the atmos....

at 8.4:1 ? I'd try it.

Duration could increase substantially over the HO if you're running a loose enough torque converter/gears. Comp spec'd mine at more than 240 (@ .050).

no money for that

I'd run the cheapest throttle body that would flow what I needed . . . not a lot o' power there, IMO. (On a real low-buck set-up, why not score a few dirt-cheap JY TBs, rig an old-school progressive linkage (e.g. early 60s Stromberg 97s) and make a simple mounting plate, with induction tubes similar to how they used to run VS-57 Paxtons on a tri-power)

Now THAT is bench racing! Made me think... 2 x 460 EFI TB's. Great idea. It'd look retarded too. I think a box on top of the 2x4 setup already there would be easier, front facing TB.


Unless you're going to boost the crap out of it, you've got more bottom end than cylinder head. And if that's the case (> ~12 psi with quench & charge cooling and probably 8-10 psi cooled but without quench), octane and/or ETOH/H20 are likely a necessary part of the plan.

METHANOL + Water with a hobbs switch

Have fun.

Already am, thanks for joining in.