Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

I don't get it

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • I don't get it

    I need a drum switch for my press brake. I can buy a Square D, Dayton, or similar for ~$150.00. OR I can buy a Chinese one for ~ 20.00

    Why the huge price difference? It's not like technology of drum switches has changed since 1920.... is there a difference between industrial settings and home settings?

    Some places mention in passing that the Chinese switches can't be used in industrial settings because if the power fails while using it, then comes back on - the machine can come back on automatically.... which, honestly, isn't a huge deal to me.
    Doing it all wrong since 1966

  • #2
    Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post
    I need a drum switch for my press brake. I can buy a Square D, Dayton, or similar for ~$150.00. OR I can buy a Chinese one for ~ 20.00

    Why the huge price difference? It's not like technology of drum switches has changed since 1920.... is there a difference between industrial settings and home settings?
    Because Chinese slave labor is cheaper than payin 'Murrican workers a decent wage to make quality parts..

    Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post
    Some places mention in passing that the Chinese switches can't be used in industrial settings because if the power fails while using it, then comes back on - the machine can come back on automatically.... which, honestly, isn't a huge deal to me.
    Take it from a guy who almost lost his life and right arm in an industrial accident and buy the one that doesn't kill you when the power goes out... Cmon counselor, you should know this stuff...

    Comment


    • #3
      it's a press brake, the only thing electrics do is spin the flywheel, you still have to push the brake release pedal to make the machine go up and down.

      In normal manufacturing, the cost of materials is 50% of the cost. Thus, in this case, at a 50% margin, the cost-of-materials is $5.00. I suspect that big contributors to the cost of the switch is the NEMA (and other) certifications. I had a case where I saw the cost of a UL listing.... it's a lot for the test, and there's also a per-widget cost as well that pays to the lab.... which, like taxes and wages get tacked onto the price to the consumer

      In short, how much labor does it take to assemble a drum switch? even if it's a per-piece and at $12.00 an hour, I'd bet that the time required is the same - so what, maybe 15 minutes a switch? - that's $3.00 labor per switch....

      .... and to this, the Chinese are neither stupid nor immoral; they know that failing products don't sell, and they know that there is a quick path to the firing squad if they make parts that kill people... (these parts are also sold in China to Chinese people, so if they fail and kill - bad things happen as opposed to here where we sick our lawyers on you.... and I digress more, but if you gave lawyers guns, maybe that would solve some problems.... anyway) in short (pun intended), I'm not buying that there's a huge labor savings, or even a technology difference.
      Doing it all wrong since 1966

      Comment


      • #4
        so what's more useful, the firing squad or UL labs in promoting product safety?
        Doing it all wrong since 1966

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post
          so what's more useful, the firing squad or UL labs in promoting product safety?
          I'm told by friends who work in the industry it's all about insurance liability.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tardis454 View Post
            I'm told by friends who work in the industry it's all about insurance liability.
            rightly so, you can do stuff that will kill yourself, but you shouldn't do stuff that kills others
            Doing it all wrong since 1966

            Comment


            • #7
              Sooo... Why not just twist wires together when you want to use it? why do you need a switch anyways?

              Comment


              • #8
                I think SBG does raise an interesting question, though. Just what is the difference between Chinese and American-made products that makes the American item cost SO much more. Are our materials that much better, does the almost total lack of environmental and worker safety laws in China add up to THAT much lower prices, or what?

                I keep reading about jobs coming back to America because our workers are so much more efficient that even with higher wages the cost per part is actually lower. Add to that the lower cost of transportation and the quicker time from supplier to end user and it's really cheaper to make stuff (at least some stuff) here.

                So is outsourcing a passing fad?

                Are Chinese prices lower because the Chinese are willing to take a bath (compared to US companies)?

                Some thoughtful questions.

                PLEASE steer away from the political on this!!!!!!! We can discuss this based on comparative Chinese/American economic theories and not one party or the other.
                Last edited by DanStokes; January 14, 2014, 07:25 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've had the same frustrating thought processes haunt me on purchase decisions for several things.

                  Think about the shipping costs - you'd think that would give stuff made here a huge advantage.... but still the chinese stuff is cheaper.

                  I'm in the process of installing a no name faucet that I suspect came from china but there is no indication of where it was made in any of the (one piece) paper work. Once installed you'll have no idea it's not a "name brand" and the castings have a quality feel to them, but I have a sore spot in my thumb now due to a sizable brass sliver that came off one of the threads. Only time will tell if this was a mistake or not - but it will be a learning experience. $60 to my door sure beats $140 plus tax at the store for "the same thing" we'll see how it turns out.
                  There's always something new to learn.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post
                    so what's more useful, the firing squad or UL labs in promoting product safety?
                    Depends on what is being determined as "more useful", and the intended goal. Perspective is a funny thing, just like everything in the mirror is reversed, so goes the perception of what is good or bad.


                    Originally posted by DanStokes View Post
                    Just what is the difference between Chinese and American-made products that makes the American item cost SO much more. Are our materials that much better, does the almost total lack of environmental and worker safety laws in China add up to THAT much lower prices, or what?

                    I keep reading about jobs coming back to America because our workers are so much more efficient that even with higher wages the cost per part is actually lower. Add to that the lower cost of transportation and the quicker time from supplier to end user and it's really cheaper to make stuff (at least some stuff) here.

                    So is outsourcing a passing fad?

                    Are Chinese prices lower because the Chinese are willing to take a bath (compared to US companies)?
                    Its a difficult line of reasoning, but nobody takes a bath in manufacturing. Not for long anyways.

                    Outsourcing a fad? Not by a long shot........in fact, we ain't seen nothing yet. Not by a long, long shot.

                    The cost of the add-ons placed by non-producing government bodies (put in place by both parties, nobody is blameless) is indeed THAT large, and then some. You would be amazed by how much is gobbled up (and necessarily added to the sale price) by taxes, fees, permitting, etc - - but its not listed on the product anywhere for the public to see, so nobody cares, just show me the price and give me the minimum monthly payment is the predominate thinking.

                    Even worse is we are slowly learning from the Chinese. We seem to be unable to address the non-production costs, so the only place to cut costs to remain even remotely competitive is in materials and quality. Cheap materials and low wage workers become extremely tempting at that point, even beyond tempting to the point of necessary to survival (meaning keeping the doors open)



                    Originally posted by milner351 View Post
                    I've had the same frustrating thought processes haunt me on purchase decisions for several things.

                    Think about the shipping costs - you'd think that would give stuff made here a huge advantage.... but still the chinese stuff is cheaper.

                    I'm in the process of installing a no name faucet that I suspect came from china but there is no indication of where it was made in any of the (one piece) paper work.


                    You are too kind John.....suspect? I automatically assume that every product I see or touch either originated or has been to china, either in part or whole.

                    On shipping costs, ever check out the MAMMOTH container ships that are the norm today? And the new ones that are just having the keels laid are so much bigger than the mammoth ships that ports are having to be dredged and widened just to accommodate them. Its really quite fascinating, Brian should run a feature on them. Mammoth.

                    Anyways, those ships run on basically straight crude oil. Really cheap fuel, and in very large bulk makes it even more cheap. The economy of scale from a freight viewpoint is staggering.....the quantity of stuff that can be moved makes transport a very small portion of the cost.


                    Like you, I struggle with this same frustrating stuff. My viewpoint is that I am leary of buying the same product name brand.....I've been learning that both seem to last just as long (which is not very long, by the way)

                    My train of thought is quickly becoming "I may as well have bought the cheap part, since I have to replace things so often anyways." It really bothers me, things that my parents and grandparents bought once and used for their entire lives I am having to replace every couple of years. Something ain't right.

                    Of all the paths you take in life - make sure a few of them are dirt.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by milner351 View Post
                      I'm in the process of installing a no name faucet that I suspect came from china but there is no indication of where it was made in any of the (one piece) paper work.
                      Yes but did you test it for lead content? That seems to be a big problem with China, they like to use lead.. in everything...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tardis454 View Post
                        Yes but did you test it for lead content? That seems to be a big problem with China, they like to use lead.. in everything...
                        Especially dog food
                        Thom

                        "The object is to keep your balls on the table and knock everybody else's off..."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by STINEY View Post
                          Depends on what is being determined as "more useful", and the intended goal. Perspective is a funny thing, just like everything in the mirror is reversed, so goes the perception of what is good or bad.




                          Its a difficult line of reasoning, but nobody takes a bath in manufacturing. Not for long anyways.

                          Outsourcing a fad? Not by a long shot........in fact, we ain't seen nothing yet. Not by a long, long shot.

                          The cost of the add-ons placed by non-producing government bodies (put in place by both parties, nobody is blameless) is indeed THAT large, and then some. You would be amazed by how much is gobbled up (and necessarily added to the sale price) by taxes, fees, permitting, etc - - but its not listed on the product anywhere for the public to see, so nobody cares, just show me the price and give me the minimum monthly payment is the predominate thinking.

                          Even worse is we are slowly learning from the Chinese. We seem to be unable to address the non-production costs, so the only place to cut costs to remain even remotely competitive is in materials and quality. Cheap materials and low wage workers become extremely tempting at that point, even beyond tempting to the point of necessary to survival (meaning keeping the doors open)





                          You are too kind John.....suspect? I automatically assume that every product I see or touch either originated or has been to china, either in part or whole.

                          On shipping costs, ever check out the MAMMOTH container ships that are the norm today? And the new ones that are just having the keels laid are so much bigger than the mammoth ships that ports are having to be dredged and widened just to accommodate them. Its really quite fascinating, Brian should run a feature on them. Mammoth.

                          Anyways, those ships run on basically straight crude oil. Really cheap fuel, and in very large bulk makes it even more cheap. The economy of scale from a freight viewpoint is staggering.....the quantity of stuff that can be moved makes transport a very small portion of the cost.


                          Like you, I struggle with this same frustrating stuff. My viewpoint is that I am leary of buying the same product name brand.....I've been learning that both seem to last just as long (which is not very long, by the way)

                          My train of thought is quickly becoming "I may as well have bought the cheap part, since I have to replace things so often anyways." It really bothers me, things that my parents and grandparents bought once and used for their entire lives I am having to replace every couple of years. Something ain't right.

                          [/INDENT]
                          We've got two offices in China......in the early days our buyers looked forward to
                          visiting the factories.........now no so much.

                          We're starting to see more product moved to other countries and back to the US.
                          Shipping, while be it cheap, is not that reliable from there.
                          Other countries are getting more competitive with quality, costs and shipping time.

                          As of January 1 there is a new no lead edict in place from the government.
                          This touches lots of plumbing products AND even the MIC stuff is supposed to be lead free.

                          Product longevity?......remember when we took the wheels off of old lawn mowers to make go carts?.........good luck with that today, damn wheels wear out in a couple of years or two.
                          Thom

                          "The object is to keep your balls on the table and knock everybody else's off..."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            indeed - this is a well informed thoughtful insightful group of folks, thanks for sharing your input.


                            I have to admit I was having pangs of guilt, sadness, bewilderment while taking out '79-80 vintage kohler stuff and replacing it with no name who knows what. The bottom line is I'm surely putting in junk compared to what I'm taking out from a "they don't make it like they used to" point of view. Sometimes you can't fix ugly - and even replacing the internal components in some of these ugly gems has not made them function much better (i'm a sucker for a smooth working 1/4 turn ball valve) and was a frustrating process in its own.

                            Sorry for the hijack but for the betterment of the group being DIY centered... if you're lovely better half says she wants "divorced" or "widespread" faucets - say no - unless (like me) you're stuck with counters already cut for these things - they at least triple the work required in plastic man gymnastic contorted positions under the sink, and if the hoses that come with them aren't the right length you'll do it twice (getting hoses today to try again tonight)...
                            There's always something new to learn.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by milner351 View Post
                              .. if you're lovely better half says she wants "divorced" or "widespread" faucets - say no - unless (like me) you're stuck with counters already cut for these things - they at least triple the work required in plastic man gymnastic contorted positions under the sink, and if the hoses that come with them aren't the right length you'll do it twice (getting hoses today to try again tonight)...
                              Ha! Glad I'm not the only one who fell for that one. Plastic man would have been a welcome assistant. I resorted to using 2 braided steel hoses (hooked together with a compression fitting sans the compression bands/nuts), dropping them through the floor to the basement, and putting the shutoff valves in the basement. Allowed me to use 1/4 turn ball valves on the CPVC lines, and a simple CPVC threaded connector for the lines. I figure most of the potential leak points are down there now (where the floor is concrete with no finished ceiling) and it freed up lots of space under/behind/inside of the pedestal sink and the pedestal bathtub and the.........you get the idea.
                              Of all the paths you take in life - make sure a few of them are dirt.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X