Safety Issue - Ford Escape Electric steering assist failure

[squirrel]

As the EPA mandates better and better fuel economy with no consideration for common sense - things that don't make all that much sense to guys like us will continue to find their way into modern vehicles to eeek out that last % of fuel economy. (it does take engine power to turn a power steering pump)

it takes engine power to turn an electric power steering motor, too. Could be the electric one is more efficient.

The hilarious part is that the basic way to get better mileage is to make cars smaller, without power robbing accessories....

[Beagle]

it takes engine power to turn an electric power steering motor, too. Could be the electric one is more efficient.

The hilarious part is that the basic way to get better mileage is to make cars smaller, without power robbing accessories....

Geo Metro, Kubota diesel. de-sulfation plant to repair dead batteries for the electric motor I'll chain drive off the rear wheels.

/edit - I gave this some thought. Alternator is turning already, EPAS is an "on demand" system that doesn't necessarily tax the electrical when it's not in use, like when most of us drive down the highway? Yeah, probably a lot more efficient.

70's Vega, V2203 Kubota out of a smog nazi'd out of use California reefer truck. Weight reduction plan is in order.

/edit - hell, this thing already had a manual transmission, why not let me have a lower ratio manual steering box? No extra weight, no extra lawsuits!

[Beagle]

as solid a plan as the Geo/Kubota plan sounds, I think I'm overlooking some things.

Girlfriends car. It won't be necessary because she won't drive it. Probably, if I drove it, I wouldn't have to worry about a girlfriend either.

Maybe I'll just fix the Escape. haha.

[OHC 6 Sprint]

this is what bugs me most about robot cars........ I have 25 yrs experience installing and maintaining electronic system. they fail. a lot. If your phone fails, its not gonna kill ya. but if your robot car suddenly loses the ability to steer at speed.............bad deal.

The $64,000 question becomes, do people drive themselves off the road more often than a computer part failure would? I'd hedge my bets on the people being more fallible.

I have worked in aerospace for 25 years, specifically in fly-by-wire control systems. These systems are the precursor to the "drive-by-wire" systems slowly finding their way into cars today.

While there are many parts to a fly-by-wire system where a single failure could cause the entire system to fail, the redundant (back-up) systems and fault detection measures are very extensive. Component failures are detected before they can affect the system, and a back-up system takes over. There are very few points in an aircraft's control system where a single-point failure can occur, either mechanical or electrical.

As of yet, the back-up systems for Drive-by-Wire cars are not extensively used because a system failure does not have the same consequences as a flight system failure. Eventually, though, these back-ups will appear on cars when their costs come down due to widespread use. Then, the 'random" occurrence of a steering system failure won't even be noticed, other than a warning light on the dash followed by an OnStar-like report to the dealer that your car needs to be serviced immediately.

In almost every single case of a fly-by-wire aircraft crashing, the cause has been traced to Pilot Error where the pilot thought he could fly the plane better than the computer - and he was wrong.*

Cars will eventually be driverless for the same reason. Computers will do a better job managing traffic than drivers. This is a fact. While it may be scary to think that a steering failure at speed could happen, the likelihood of the catastrophic result will be far less than you'd imagine. Will it happen? Yes, it will. As in the OP's case, the power assist system failed, and the back up system (the driver) had to be employed. In the future, there will be a back-up assist motor that will engage BEFORE the failure of the primary assist motor since its impending failure would have been detected by the fault-detection built-in to the system.

(*An awesome exception to this scenario occurred in the initial flight testing of the F-22 Raptor where the fly-by-wire elevator control system started to oscillate. The aircraft should have crashed, but the test pilot managed to control the plane onto the runway and save the airframe. This would be the same as a test driver or a racecar driver being at the wheel when the steering assist system fails.)

[Deaf Bob]

Why not do what Carl does... He talks about Big Brother, and I agree with him on many points.. My kids both think we both are batshit nuts.. Carl carbs every fuel injected car he has.. No government is gonna shut him off..
So my point being, why not basic up the Escape? Go old style without electric assist etc?

[Scott Liggett]

I have worked in aerospace for 25 years, specifically in fly-by-wire control systems. These systems are the precursor to the "drive-by-wire" systems slowly finding their way into cars today.

While there are many parts to a fly-by-wire system where a single failure could cause the entire system to fail, the redundant (back-up) systems and fault detection measures are very extensive. Component failures are detected before they can affect the system, and a back-up system takes over. There are very few points in an aircraft's control system where a single-point failure can occur, either mechanical or electrical.

As of yet, the back-up systems for Drive-by-Wire cars are not extensively used because a system failure does not have the same consequences as a flight system failure. Eventually, though, these back-ups will appear on cars when their costs come down due to widespread use. Then, the 'random" occurrence of a steering system failure won't even be noticed, other than a warning light on the dash followed by an OnStar-like report to the dealer that your car needs to be serviced immediately.

In almost every single case of a fly-by-wire aircraft crashing, the cause has been traced to Pilot Error where the pilot thought he could fly the plane better than the computer - and he was wrong.*

Cars will eventually be driverless for the same reason. Computers will do a better job managing traffic than drivers. This is a fact. While it may be scary to think that a steering failure at speed could happen, the likelihood of the catastrophic result will be far less than you'd imagine. Will it happen? Yes, it will. As in the OP's case, the power assist system failed, and the back up system (the driver) had to be employed. In the future, there will be a back-up assist motor that will engage BEFORE the failure of the primary assist motor since its impending failure would have been detected by the fault-detection built-in to the system.

(*An awesome exception to this scenario occurred in the initial flight testing of the F-22 Raptor where the fly-by-wire elevator control system started to oscillate. The aircraft should have crashed, but the test pilot managed to control the plane onto the runway and save the airframe. This would be the same as a test driver or a racecar driver being at the wheel when the steering assist system fails.)

Aircraft triple redundancy and safety backups, especially on commercial aircraft, has never been on a single car for anything.

[Beagle]

there is redundancy - Armstrong redundancy. I'm a little concerned that the car tries to steer itself when on center and idling. Any time it has been in a ditch so far, I drove it there.

[OHC 6 Sprint]

Aircraft triple redundancy and safety backups, especially on commercial aircraft, has never been on a single car for anything.

You are 100% correct. As of today, the cost does not warrant it. But the day will come.

System redundancy has been reduced on aircraft over the course of about 30 years due to separation of critical systems and the improvements in computing power, fault detection and component (and therefor system) reliability. Today there are half as many computers and control channels as there were in the 70's and 80's, but they are far more capable and reliable.

Cars will go through the same evolution, too, eventually.

Just as there will be aircraft that are still flown 100% by pilots without the help of fly-by-wire control systems, there will also always be cars that are driven 100% by drivers without "computer" assistance. And, like in aviation, these will be restricted to rural areas where controllers aren't needed.

[DanStokes]

And cars DO have some rudimentary redundant systems. Big example - split braking systems. Remember "one-pot" master cylinders? Nearly everyone agrees that the dual pot systems are a better idea and even street rods and other home-built cars generally have them now. If something (say, a brake line) fails, the other end of the car can still save you - redundant system. As pointed out, the fall-back human steering input is also a fail-safe mode (although a bit Armstrong, it's still there).

So I agree with Sprint that there will be more of this but the precedent is already there.

Dan

[Barry Donovan]

Aircraft triple redundancy and safety backups, especially on commercial aircraft, has never been on a single car for anything.

so true.

there is four wheels, but...

I just got to a dual ignition..one sits dead, swap a fuse. Patting myself on the back.

[SpiderGearsMan]

Nipponshitto ..needs a motor

[pdub]

We got a snail mail from Ford today about the throttle body on the 2012 Fusion, whatever part that is. They say in the vein of customer service they're drastically extending the factory warranty on that one part, that it can get corrosion in it and go bad. In the fail mode, the car slows down but you still have full steering and brakes etc.

They say, if the little wrench light comes on, or if that episode happens, take it to the dealer for grand treatment.

I'll bet that doesn't have a thing to do with what y'all are talking about, but there's a "published" account of it.

[Scott Liggett]

Redundancy was necessary on planes flying at 500 mph at 30,000 feet carrying 200 people. The potential for hundreds of deaths for one going down due to a failure is far more than a single car losing control.

[fast Ed]

Just a curiosity question. What year is yours. I bought my wife a 2012 new. Now I am worried.

08-12 use the same style column. The earlier ones all change up to the latest revision of the 2012 part.


cheers
Ed

[Beagle]

I'm thinking it is the position sensor, cuz it's started that twitchy thing on center when it's working now *at all speeds* which is pretty unnerving at 70mph. It is moving the wheels back and forth at 70mph on it's own in a high center of gravity vehicle. I'd almost rather have it just fail and stay that way. I am pretty surprised it hasn't thrown a code and lit up a light on the dash.