Anyone race on E-85?

[Bamfster]

Re: Anyone race on E-85?

This place has some good info on carbs:

http://e85forum.com/index.php?sid=787bfcf8e3346a1d2f70250c0f54de02

[SpeedJunkee's Carbs]

Re: Anyone race on E-85?

Rocket Fuel offers 112 octane E-85

[Darren N.]

Re: Anyone race on E-85?

On a local forum (Montreal, QC) I exchanged some messages with a dude who was buying E98 directly from a petrochemical company (I think it was Petro Canada). At this time last year he was buying 205L for around $160 which is incredible when compared to race gasoline. So for us Canucks that is 78 Cents/L or you dudes down south that's $2.95 per gallon....and that's for fuel with an equivalent octane rating greater than 110, yowza!

As mentioned earlier, ethanol contains less energy (about 30% less) than your average gasoline given the same mass. So yes, you need to dump in more fuel to extract the same amount of work you would get with running gasoline. However, once you bump up the compression ratio, or throw on some boost, to take advantage of the octane rating you can squeeze out some more power.

But here's the neat part, even though you have to flow about 30%* more ethanol in, the equivalent cost could be at least the same or better than gasoline. In Quebec, regular 87 gasoline sells for anywhere from $1.05-1.50/L, so at one point it was cheaper to run ethanol (and it's still competitive now). So factoring in the added fuel required, I could potentially run E98 for an equivalent $1.10/L of gasoline (which is the price right now)... that’s heavy man. 8)

However, the reality is that ethanol is heavily subsidized by both the Canadian and American governments and it's what's keeping the price low. I'm not sure how long these subsidies will last but at least in terms of weekend racers it could be an economical choice over race gas.

Also, in some cases using ethanol avoids the use of leaded race gasoline not to mention that it also burns a little cleaner. So it has a possible environmental benefit as well (to us gearheads). We've already seen Indy make the switch. It would neat to see some other some drag classes follow suite. Even if ethanol doesn't become widely used by the automotive industry (I personally don't believe it will), motorsports could be its niche (at least for some classes and or sanctions).

So yes, I also want join the bandwagon of building an ethanol fueled drag project. :P

For inquisitive minds:

If you're in Canada and want to see where you can get ethanol and other fuels, hit up the government's Office of Energy Efficiency,

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/transportation/personal/vehicle_fuels.cfm?attr=0

(I imagine there is an American equivalent, I'll poke around and if I come across it I'll post it here.)


*You can compare some of the energy densities of various fuels here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density
Notable ones include (the units are Mega-joules per kilogram, i.e. energy per unit mass)
Ethanol (Pure, ie 100%): 30 MJ/kg
**Gasoline: 45 MJ/kg
Methanol:19.7 MJ/kg
Nitromethane:11.3 MJ/kg
Diesel: 46 MJ/kg

**For pump gasoline it's a little tricky, what's legally defined as gasoline varies by region. In some places regular gasoline may already be blended with up to 10% ethanol without any indication. So finding consistency will most likely be an issue with gasoline, or gasoline/ethanol blends as noted by Dieselgeek.

[Eric68]

Re: Anyone race on E-85?

Someone asked about how many distributors of E85 there are. As I understand it, E85 is all trucked -- no pipelines, so it is produced and consumed regionally for the most part. So chances are, that in a given area there are only one or two suppliers and there is very little variance in the ethanol used to produce E85.

Now the interesting part is that the gas/ethanol blending is not done at the ethanol distributor, but by the truck driver. Or so I am told. What this means is that the blend ratio can vary depending on the driver. In my case, I only fill up at one station and the consistency of the blend has been very good according to my LM1. It wasn't until late summer that I suddenly went lean after a fill up -- jetted up 4 sizes and I was good to go.

Interestingly enough, when I went on Drag Week 06 with my LM1 running pump gas I saw variations on pump gas too. I saw as much as a full point AFR during cruise conditions so I assume there is some differences in blends from state to state and pump to pump.

I would NOT suggest converting to E85 if you are a "set it and forget it" kinda guy. If you like to tweak and tinker with tuneups then go for it. The initial tuneup was a lot of work for me, but after I got it setup correctly the maintenance has been minimal.

It should also be noted that too rich with E85 is very forgiving and power does not fall off nearly as fast as gasoline. So if you set your tuneup to for lean max power on high ethaol content summer blend then it will go a little rich in the spring and fall and you will probably not notice any real drop off in power.

[dieselgeek]

Re: Anyone race on E-85?

Interestingly enough, when I went on Drag Week 06 with my LM1 running pump gas I saw variations on pump gas too. I saw as much as a full point AFR during cruise conditions so I assume there is some differences in blends from state to state and pump to pump.

Are you sure that's not just a variance in barometric conditions, a carb that's not compensating for that, and not the fuel? I've never observed that much of a difference in pump gas...

[Eric68]

Re: Anyone race on E-85?

Saw a difference when crossing a state line right after a fill up. Granted, lots of other factors that could effect it too, and we did change elevation a bit.

There is some variation in gasoline though, especially on long trips.

[Darren N.]

Re: Anyone race on E-85?

Now the interesting part is that the gas/ethanol blending is not done at the ethanol distributor, but by the truck driver. Or so I am told. What this means is that the blend ratio can vary depending on the driver.

lol! No offence to the truck driver, but I hope not.

In fact, I really want to find out who decides on the blend and at what stage of the process it is done at. Time for some research.

Wicked Camaro by the way, and extra bonus points for running E85. : D

[horsewidower]

Re: Anyone race on E-85?

I run e-85 in a turbo roadrace car. In trying to find a source here in northern California (there are no gas station pumps available to the public) I talked to Interstate Oil, the local distributor to the public agencies that are running the stuff. There rep told me that they pumped the calculated amount of regular fuel into the tank truck and then filled it the rest of the way with ethanol. The stuff "mixed itself" as the truck was driving down the road. !!!

We have the main office for Pacific Ethanol here in town, and they just opened a large plant in Stockton which is very close. Hopefully they'll have it available at the pump here soon.

I love the stuff.

Bob Holmes