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Pontiac Next To Go?

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  • #31
    Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

    As I understand it, US (and Canadian) legislators are saying no help to the automakers unless they are first presented a plan (not that I'm confident the majority of elected government officials or unelected bureaucrats would know a good auto industry plan if it ran them down in the street, but I digress).

    Anyway, there's certainly been a lot of talk about too many brands competing for the same customer base, model overlap, etc. Intuitively, some of what's being said makes sense -- why have Chevy and GMC trucks; Ford killed off Mercury trucks years ago and it was, from a business point of view, a smart move.

    Which brings us to the Pontiac question. Sentimentality aside, what is there that distinguishes Pontiac today? Some will point out the G8 and G8 Sport Truck (which I still insist should be added to the Chevy order of battle and badged an El Camino). I think these were good moves if the aim was to revitalize Pontiac as the "sporty" division, but -- sadly -- the timing was wrong and its now too little too late. And I'm sure a resurgent Cadillac, a good news story in its own right for GM, isn't helping the Poncho team.

    Big picture, if Pontiac gets the axe and it contributes to putting the General back on the road to profitability, then the corporate flacks who do the chopping will look like heroes. My bigger concern however, is that the real problem is that there is no longer a viable business model for sustaining all three of the Big Three. If GM succeeds in getting taxpayer assistance based on a radical plan that includes getting rid of Pontiac, but the feds still keep a terminally ill Chrysler on life-support, then the whole thing will have been a waste of time. And I'm still NOT convinced that any sort of bailout will really serve to make things better in the long run; we have a long history of corporate welfare in Canada and the result is almost always the same: the execs, corporate hangers-on and big union leaders end up with cozy packages and the jobs go south of the Rio Grande or to the other side of the Pacific.
    Michael from Hampton Roads

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    • #32
      Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

      There's a side to this thig that just hit me like a ton of bricks.

      GM cuts Saturn, Pontiac, and Saab. This MASSIVE reduction in operating costs, workforce, etc, may then allow them to re-enter talks with Chrysler that terminated some weeks ago.

      The operating capital that Chrysler has (10-12 billion) would help GM stay solvent, and allow them to keep on a payment schedule with the government if some assistance is rendered. It would also provide them with RWD models that would be departing with Pontiac, a suitable mini-van, and the Ram truck line which in all honest could be sold under the GMC banner along with the Silverado as there is still profit in the truck segment, just at reduced levels.

      The two distinct models would offer choice to buyers and the infrastructure to produce both are in place and operating currently.


      Maybe someone slipped some peyote into my Leinenkugel's but is this as crazy as it sounds?!

      Brian
      That which you manifest is before you.

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      • #33
        Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

        Certainly as good as anything anyone else has put forward.

        I wonder what an options analysis would reveal in terms of net job losses for (a) keep the current GM marks (incl Pontiac) and let Chrysler go, or (b) execute your proposal?

        I'll bet plan B would be fairly compelling.
        Michael from Hampton Roads

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        • #34
          Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

          My WAG is that it would favor plan B.

          BUT...I forgot about Jeep. Would fit in a GMC dealer? At first blush I say yes.

          GM would cut all employees at the 3 divisions and if they acquired Chrysler, the only production employees retained would be those on the RWD lines, Wrangler lines, Mini-van lines, and Ram lines.
          I say that they are ahead.

          I'm sorry to be talking about people like a commodity here. It's easy to forget that how ever this goes, tens or possibly hundreds of thousands of people are going to be worse off for it. It's interesting (to me) to follow the money and try to see the bigger picture. There's always parts of the plan we'll never be told.

          As my old J-school professors used to tell me, "Follow the money."

          Brian
          That which you manifest is before you.

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          • #35
            Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

            I'd personaly hate to see Pontiac go,they've not been Pontiacs for along time,but Buicks are big sellers overseas.Kill the Shivolet trucks,And (hate to say it) keep Shivolet.It's been a cheap ass car since the 1910's,and that's where it should be.The only Geriatric Motors car I'd like to buy is a Cadillac XLR,but no manual trans is offered.Wake up G.M.,you've been behind for a long time.
            Calypornya...near the beach

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            • #36
              Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

              The car business is going through the same situation as the airlines.
              Too much capacity........16 million cars made each year, 10 million being purchased.
              Something has to give.

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              • #37
                Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

                last year GM had it's best sales year ever and outsold the mighty toyota
                just not making any money due to extreme overhead
                maybe the local yokels can offer the same tax breaks to domestics that are extended to honda , hyundai and toyota to build plants

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                • #38
                  Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

                  I think one reason Buick's sell so well over in Asia etc, is Tiger Wood's endorsements with Buick. They worship the guy there. He ended his endorsements with GM recently....

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                  • #39
                    Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

                    I know I got mentioned early in this post but I've just now had a chance to read it. Buick is distinct from everything else in GM in terms of market target and style. Chevy is caught trying to cover everything from econo trasport pod to near luxury vehicles. Why, because Kia and Hyundai have been doing it recently and they want to compete with the other "regular" transportation brands. Pontiac is simularly stuck with fighting for a performance image when the only NASCAR bodies are Chevies and they are trying to straddle the luxury performance market owned by the foreign makes like BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus. GM is trying to target the audience with a global sport type car rather than a muscle type car which I can't blame them for since with the infulence of the "handling" culture people want to take the cloverleaf at 50 and the onramp at 70 rather than just the onramp at 80. Buick is atleast focused on selling safe, comfortable cars with a luxury level fitting the stable retiree and elder family couples. That means the are shooting for what used to be Lexus and Acura territory till Lexus headed off for the sports performance Europeans and Acura headed for the youth and younger family market. Buick has some performance (more on the lines of not be embarassed than kick butt) and lots of well designed luxury. Cadillac is doing thier own thing but can't leverage the mass production stuff of the rest of GM but doesn't need to since the brand image is actually designed to be exclusive and costly. I think GM needs to cut market overlap and interdivision competition. I know ya'll hate him but Jeremy Clarkson did a very good piece on "what killed the British car industry" and you can see the same thing happening inside of GM and Ford. As far as purchasing Chrysler for an RWD platform.... Holden has that covered, its as easy to put a Buick badge (which they do in China) on it as a Pontiac one. Chrysler would largely be a face saving and ego game with Toyota in my oppinion to reclaim #1 status. Of all the big manufactures, I'd be most willing to let them die and get broken up since short of the Viper everything they have made recently seems to embody everything that is wrong with American manufacturers. Stuff that glows and flashes but doesn't wear well and has such an air of cheapness to it. Granted Chevy ain't much better seeing the inside of our fleet of Impalas and Malibus but atleast they actually are lasting and holding up to the miles.

                    What is really lame duck is Mercury, they are in no way shape or form anything more than a rebranded Ford. Ford offers the same luxuries for the same price, but you have a larger trim ladder to climb.
                    Central TEXAS Sleeper
                    USAF Physicist

                    ROA# 9790

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                    • #40
                      Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

                      I'm pretty PO'ed about this. Go ahead pull the whole deal outta here. I don't give a rat's hind end if Pontiacs aren't
                      selling in indochina. Paste a GM badge on whatever, might as well threaten us with doing in chevrolet as well. Yeah
                      us taxpayers will pay ya not to do that. It can go down in history with the rest of the "swell" decisions GM has made
                      i.e. "We'll kill off the Caprice", so we can manufacture some even bigger junk. Boo Hoo the middle easterners have
                      jacked up the price of oil. We didn't see that coming? Or kill off the Camaro, ( only selling 30,000 a year)so we can
                      make some even bigger junk. (Handing all these sale to Ford)
                      Gee lets off the Chevy pickup (re-badge engineer). Anyone notice Chevy+GMC sales = selling more pickups than
                      Ford? I addmit to not having checked the sales figures for a few years.
                      Ah, the joys of being "global", all of our junk can be just like Russia's, or Africa's cars... Yeah what the heck let our
                      grandkids kids pay for it. All so GM can slam a car together faster/cheaper.

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                      • #41
                        Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

                        This comment belongs somewhere between here and the "did you buy a new car" thread started earlier. I agree with the 16 million v 10 million capacity/sales statement. Really, the manufacturers are victims of their own success. They build cars that last far longer then what was built just 10 years ago. I bought a new H3 Sept. last year and expect to own it for 10 years or 200,000 miles - whichever comes first... and that expectation is reasonable. So why would I buy a new car.. the money I save from not buying a new car I can feed my addiction..oops... I mean hobby - which is classic cars. Have you noticed that besides the always desireable - that you can pick up vehicles for pennies of what you would have paid just 10 years ago. Example... 10 years ago a 4x4 chev pickup of the 73-80 variety could be bought for 2500 bucks for a reasonable runner.. now, 800 bucks is considered spendy....
                        There really is too much capacity. I am truly sorry to see Pontiac on the table; but realistically GM did an admirable job of trying to make it a viable entity.... the G8, the GTO were meant to compete against BMW in the states. They don't - for many reasons (but I can tell you why I didn't buy one - no sunroof).... and now they're out of chances. They don't have off-shore sales to save them like Buick does because Holden is a very popular brand down under...
                        Finally, let's keep in mind that besides North America - GM is a solvent company.... and while North America does make up a great deal of its sales - even if GM disappeared from here; they would continue selling worldwide...
                        Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                        • #42
                          Re: Pontiac Next To Go?

                          I agree with the victims of their own success, to some degree anyway. Don't get me wrong reguarding my earlier
                          tirade, I'm GM through and thru. I'm less brand partial than I used to be, even own a couple of fords now, one driven
                          daily.
                          The thing is, I see alot of new Pontiacs purchased over the last few years, some by the Ford powerstroke guys that I
                          work with. Get good milage, sporty , affordable.
                          So the "North American" market is no longer enough. Gosh maybe rebadge a Yugo, cheap, disposable= you gotta
                          buy another, and soon. I just can't see sticking this on the N.American taxpayers shoulders, but congress probably
                          can. Why should we Pay them to off what I consider one of their flagship brands? We're gonna get paid back right?
                          How I ask, no more moving jobs/plants outside of the border? Yup, the unions are victims of their own success as well.
                          As an err, carjunkie, I have a different point of view I guess, but really aren't we rolling advertisements for our brand(s)
                          of choice? Hope they don"t alienate too many. Pontiac guys have had a tough go of it, what with the dimise of their
                          engines etc.

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