Muscle car defined

[MOPARS RULE]

In my view the first true "Muscle Car" was the 1955 Chrysler 300. But hey, I'm a Mopar guy. The term Muscle Cars really didn't come about until sometime in the late 1960s, and before that that were called "Super Cars" by guys like Roger Huntington. The Pontiac GTO is known as a Muscle Car, the first, as it was a performance package. However, a 409/409 '62 Biscayne, a 413 Savoy, a 421 Catalina, a 406 Galaxie, they were high-performance machines yes, and called Muscle Cars by the majority, but they had engine packages not complete car packages like the Chrysler 300 and Poncho GTO. However a 409 Impala SS is a Muscle Car in my book.

So, the Muscle Car topic can be talked about here, we all know the Plymouth Road Runner was the best-selling Muscle Car of all time. There were plenty to choose from, I could list them all but no reason, either it's a Muscle Car or it's not.

Now a days I see lots of people that are mixed up about the true meaning of a Muscle Car. OK, let's say the early cars like 413 and 426 Wedges and 409s and 421s and 406/427 FE Fords were Muscle Cars even though they were not really marketed as a package car (engine, suspension, brake upgrades with unique name) because it's splitting hairs.

Here's what are NOT muscle cars.

Any FOUR DOOR car from the 1950s - 1990s.

Anything with a 318 engine, a 307 Chev, a 350 Chev 2-bbl, a 351 Ford 2-bbl, any six-cylinder anything and any non-turbo V6.

I've only begun --- oh, and any Monte Carlo that isn't an an SS 454 version. A 2-bbl Firebird or Camaro is not a Muscle Car. A Dodge Charger with a 383 2 bbl is not a Muscle Car. What say you?

[Weldangrind]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

Ok, I'm with you on all that.

That said, I'll bet that the Deuce with a flattie was considered to be remarkably powerful over previous four banger A's and T's. I know that doesn't fit your "musclecar" definition, but it was one of the earlier steps.

[RyanWalker]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

A few of the cars you mentioned that are NOT muscle cars according to you, have been sort of seen as muscle cars or turned into them. Example 318 Duster... ??? I dunno...

[MOPARS RULE]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

In my view, there's factory produced Muscle Cars (like a Demon 340) and then there's cars like a 318 Duster that has been modified, "Hot Rodded," it could have 700 ponies under the hood, but it's not a Muscle Car. If the term gets blurred then some guy with a 4-door Buick Special is going to claim it's a rare Muscle Car, and that just ain't right.

[Scott Liggett]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

I believe the mass media called the 64 GTO the first muscle car because it was the first non full sized car to get a full sized car's engine. Before that time, you had to buy a big car to get a big bad engine. I too believe the muscle car came about earlier. IMO, it came about when the car companies really starting taking the performance of a car seriously. You could go farther back than 1955. How about 1949 when Olds introduced it's over head valve Rocket 88 V8? Hell, the Super Charged Duesenberg had 320 hp when ole Henry Ford's hottest car had 85 hp.

[MOPARS RULE]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

Some oldtimers say a Duesenberg was the first Muscle Car but I say it was an ultra high dollar luxury car that happened to be fast, way ahead of it's time yes, but not marketed to the masses like the others. Sure the Chrysler 300 was expensive, but nothing like the Duesy.

[MOPARS RULE]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

And this is all about America, as I can already see the Australians are going to pipe up about their 4-door Falcons and "Hemi 6" Mopars. Any true red-blooded American car nut back in the day would not even be seen in a four-door car! A six-cylinder was for Grandma. 

[RyanWalker]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

In my view, there's factory produced Muscle Cars (like a Demon 340) and then there's cars like a 318 Duster that has been modified, "Hot Rodded," it could have 700 ponies under the hood, but it's not a Muscle Car. If the term gets blurred then some guy with a 4-door Buick Special is going to claim it's a rare Muscle Car, and that just ain't right.

The term gets blurred a bit, but when people see a "700hp 318 duster" there gonna think muscle car. Is it technically correct? I don't know....

[MOPARS RULE]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

That Duster would be IMO a "Pro Street" car if fat rear tires, wheelie bars, etc, a Hot Rod and / or a street racer, but the "Muscle Car" is something that was factory produced to go fast. A 318 Duster was not originally a high-performance car. This is an important part of American automotive history and it should be not be blurred to the point where a 1975 Nova is ever called a Muscle Car.

[Mr4Speed]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

Four door full size Chevys were available with solid lifter 409s and 427s and four speeds and that's definitely muscle-gray area I suppose.

The aussie XY-GT HO phase 3 Falcons were race cars with license plates, as were some of the Hemi six pack Valiant Chargers, and each were faster in a straight line then all but the fastest of the 60's US "muscle cars".

Some consider Camaros and Mustangs to be pony cars and not muscle cars regardless of engines, and many insist that Corvettes are not muscle cars because they're sports cars-all semantics.

I'm sure ALL of us here know what constitutes a muscle car, or are qualified to make the judgement call so what exactly is the point of this thread? To state the obvious? To preach to the choir?

[MOPARS RULE]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

I'm sure ALL of us here know what constitutes a muscle car, or are qualified to make the judgement call so what exactly is the point of this thread? To state the obvious? To preach to the choir?

Naw, just to shoot the chit. So when some lady says her nephew owns a "Muscle Car" and he pulls up in a 1978 Volare 4-door with a Slant 6 and single glasspack, you can say: "Yep, sure is a Muscle Car." (So not to hurt feelings.)

[65RHDEER]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

The aussie XY-GT HO phase 3 Falcons were race cars with license plates, as were some of the Hemi six pack Valiant Chargers, and each were faster in a straight line then all but the fastest of the 60's US "muscle cars".

The Australian GT Falcons of this era were four doors as Ford Australia did not have a coupe/two door in their line up.
The GT was also the fastest four door in the world at that time, if my memory is correct 144MPH off the show room floor.

It is a muscle car.

[MOPARS RULE]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

I understand the Australian Ford situation, the theme was American Muscle Cars, but now that I think about it, the Oldsmoble "442" option the first year actually was technically available on a 4-door Cutlass, and there was an advertisement showing such car. Did any get built? Who knows for sure.

[MOPARS RULE]

Re: MUSCLE CAR DEFINED

In my view the first true "Muscle Car" was the 1955 Chrysler 300. But hey, I'm a Mopar guy. The term Muscle Cars really didn't come about until sometime in the late 1960s, and before that that were called "Super Cars" by guys like Roger Huntington. The Pontiac GTO is known as a Muscle Car, the first, as it was a performance package. However, a 409/409 '62 Biscayne, a 413 Savoy, a 421 Catalina, a 406 Galaxie, they were high-performance machines yes, and called Muscle Cars by the majority, but they had engine packages not complete car packages like the Chrysler 300 and Poncho GTO. However a 409 Impala SS is a Muscle Car in my book.

So, the Muscle Car topic can be talked about here, we all know the Plymouth Road Runner was the best-selling Muscle Car of all time. There were plenty to choose from, I could list them all but no reason, either it's a Muscle Car or it's not.

Now a days I see lots of people that are mixed up about the true meaning of a Muscle Car. OK, let's say the early cars like 413 and 426 Wedges and 409s and 421s and 406/427 FE Fords were Muscle Cars even though they were not really marketed as a package car (engine, suspension, brake upgrades with unique name) because it's splitting hairs.

Here's what are NOT muscle cars.

Any FOUR DOOR car from the 1950s - 1990s.

Anything with a 318 engine, a 307 Chev, a 350 Chev 2-bbl, a 351 Ford 2-bbl, any six-cylinder anything and any non-turbo V6.

I've only begun --- oh, and any Monte Carlo that isn't an an SS 454 version. A 2-bbl Firebird or Camaro is not a Muscle Car. A Dodge Charger with a 383 2 bbl is not a Muscle Car. What say you? 

I didn't see the US cars only comment in this post, I must look again.

I understand the Australian Ford situation, the theme was American Muscle Cars, but now that I think about it, the Oldsmoble "442" option the first year actually was technically available on a 4-door Cutlass, and there was an advertisement showing such car. Did any get built? Who knows for sure.

So you're now saying four doors are included as Muscle cars?

The reference to America wasn't in the first post, it was in #6. The exception to the four-door Muscle Car (American made, prior to  90s era Chev Impala SS) would be if someone came up with a factory Oldsmobile Cutlass with 442 option, that would be a real 60s muscle car by definition with four doors.

[KeithTurk]

Re: Muscle car defined

I just fixed the capitalization in the SUBJECT line ...