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  • Help me make this 1960 phoenix race ready

    So I've got the rule book, been reading it, and I need some clarifications. But first, a back story on why i'm doing this. So a friend of mine has this car for sale, I don't have the money, but he sticks some mooneyes on it and lays an injection scoop on the hood. It hit me like too many drinks, I went stupid, my wallet fell open and some how I ended up back home with this and the strongest desire to get this car in the 130mph club. (and a hang over, never trust a friend with a trailer when your drunk, you end up with junk in the yard.)

    One thing it doesn't mention in the rule book is how much rust they will tollerate. This car has some rot, not horribly bad rot but it's there. How much of it are they going to make me patch? And how er, elegant do the patches need to be?

    Roll cage, So the 130mph club is only the start for this thing, eventually I'll race it in a proper class. Now they say the minimum is a 4 point cage, but then the illustration is far more complex. I do want to keep this car streetable and at least some access to the (currently non existent) back seat. Since the inside of the car is already gutted, now is the time to get the cage in it. I was thinking an 8 point or 6 point setup. How low will they let me keep the door beams?

    Brakes, are they going to complain about the OEM 11x2 single circuit drums? I mean, yeah the peddle is firm but, hauling this thing down from 150mph, I have some serious concerns about it stopping inside of 2 miles.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Polyhead View Post
    One thing it doesn't mention in the rule book is how much rust they will tollerate. This car has some rot, not horribly bad rot but it's there. How much of it are they going to make me patch? And how er, elegant do the patches need to be?
    Have you been to Maxton or Wilmington and seen the "Rustang" ... if so, you wouldn't be asking this question. The body needs to be structurally sound and passing Technical Inspection is at the discretion of the inspectors and Race Director. If the car sheds bits of rusted metal as it goes down the track, it probably won't pass.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by White Monster View Post
      . If the car sheds bits of rusted metal as it goes down the track, it probably won't pass.
      Damn.... that counts me out...
      It's really no different than trying to glue them back on after she has her way.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by White Monster View Post

        Have you been to Maxton or Wilmington and seen the "Rustang" ... if so, you wouldn't be asking this question. The body needs to be structurally sound and passing Technical Inspection is at the discretion of the inspectors and Race Director. If the car sheds bits of rusted metal as it goes down the track, it probably won't pass.
        Right, so a few donuts in a bumpy field to knock any loose bits of and were good!

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        • #5
          What venue are you considering?

          At ECTA (our rules are based off the SCTA rules) there is a requirement that "all vehicles entered in an event shall be maintained so as to present a neat appearance". I know of no specific requirements about body rust but in general a rusty car will not have smooth passage of air over the body and the faster you go the more this matters. I'd learn how to weld sheetmetal.

          DO NOT think that 130 is easy. It's unlikely that you'll attain that goal without considerable effort. Starting with a poly head MOPAR will make it more difficult as there is not a lot of aftermarket support for this engine - though folks have run stranger stuff that this!

          There is no specific requirement for disc brakes but it's your butt in the seat - you may want to find which junk yard parts will allow you to convert to discs.

          As far as the cage - a 6 point is considered minimal if you exceed 130 at ECTA and I believe is the least you can run at SCTA events if running at lower speeds. Remember, roll cages can be made bolt-in within certain constraints - check your rule book. Door bars can be swing-out but must keep your elbows inside the cage - low door bars will let your arms come above the bars. Also note the window net requirements. And requirements for a metal racing seat and belts, etc.

          All in all, the one thing we take seriously in LSR is safety. No corners can be cut in this regard. If I'm reading your post correctly you are sort of thinking of doing this as a sort of weekend jaunt - it doesn't work that way. Your Phoenix will require some serious effort just to get thru tech never mind actually going fast. I don't mean to discourage you but you need to have a realistic understanding before you wade into this. It takes a serious commitment of time, money, and effort to get a car to the track. I just spent 2+ years getting an S-10 to the track - and it was a race truck when I got it.

          Best of luck!

          Dan

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          • #6
            Originally posted by DanStokes View Post
            What venue are you considering?

            At ECTA (our rules are based off the SCTA rules) there is a requirement that "all vehicles entered in an event shall be maintained so as to present a neat appearance". I know of no specific requirements about body rust but in general a rusty car will not have smooth passage of air over the body and the faster you go the more this matters. I'd learn how to weld sheetmetal.

            DO NOT think that 130 is easy. It's unlikely that you'll attain that goal without considerable effort. Starting with a poly head MOPAR will make it more difficult as there is not a lot of aftermarket support for this engine - though folks have run stranger stuff that this!

            There is no specific requirement for disc brakes but it's your butt in the seat - you may want to find which junk yard parts will allow you to convert to discs.

            As far as the cage - a 6 point is considered minimal if you exceed 130 at ECTA and I believe is the least you can run at SCTA events if running at lower speeds. Remember, roll cages can be made bolt-in within certain constraints - check your rule book. Door bars can be swing-out but must keep your elbows inside the cage - low door bars will let your arms come above the bars. Also note the window net requirements. And requirements for a metal racing seat and belts, etc.

            All in all, the one thing we take seriously in LSR is safety. No corners can be cut in this regard. If I'm reading your post correctly you are sort of thinking of doing this as a sort of weekend jaunt - it doesn't work that way. Your Phoenix will require some serious effort just to get thru tech never mind actually going fast. I don't mean to discourage you but you need to have a realistic understanding before you wade into this. It takes a serious commitment of time, money, and effort to get a car to the track. I just spent 2+ years getting an S-10 to the track - and it was a race truck when I got it.

            Best of luck!

            Dan
            Well plan is to do it in stages.
            The September meet at Bonneville has a class for street legal vehicles. The 130 and 150mph club events. So that's the starting point. Even getting into that will probably take the better part of 5 years.
            ​
            ​After that, the car will become an all out race car. I have no hope of seeing any records with it. The money is just never going to be there. Not unless being a machinist suddenly starts paying better or some sponsors decide I'm not as dumb as I look.
            ​
            ​I have a Seneca parts car that has some body panels i can rob. That gives me the chance to do track swappable aero mods.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Polyhead View Post
              So I've got the rule book, been reading it, and I need some clarifications.
              Originally posted by Polyhead View Post
              The September meet at Bonneville has a class for street legal vehicles.
              So, you have an SCTA Rulebook and are planning to attend Speedweek ?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by White Monster View Post


                So, you have an SCTA Rulebook and are planning to attend Speedweek ?

                Not this year, and probably not next either. Really it depends on getting the time off work. Being a machinist at the top of his game has it's strings attatched, and that string is more of a chain, that keeps me inside the shop. :/ I probably won't do speed week for a while. The 130mph club trials are held not by the SCTA but by the USFRA. The SCTA rules however are a good starting point for the construction of the car. This is the September meet up, not the August SCTA event.

                However I think this winter I can get the trans loop, racing seats and safety belts in the car. That seems to be the requirements to make the car legal for an attempt at the 130mph club. Maybe some fuel line routing changes as well. That's just as well since, first 5/16ths line isn't going to cut it, two the fuel tank is junk (and from a camaro). So the easy sollution to that mess is to just run new line and a fuel cell. That will also give me a proper sump for EFI and return ports to run a return type fuel system.

                From what I can gather, to have any hope of hitting 130mph at bonnevilles altitude and on the salt the car needs to be, at sea level, moving at around 100mph in the quarter mile. Well that's a solid 11 second ET and the NHRA is going to require a cage for that. Living in portland oregon I have a fairly well prepped drag strip to test those numbers at. So if I can get the car into the 100mph club at PIR then i'm looking at having a shot of getting the car into the 130mph club at bonneville.

                On the roll cage end I do have a builder avialable. He's in my amateur radio club and has built USAC sprints and migits as well as NASCAR modified and late model chassies. So he'll be helping with understanding the rules as well. I really want a 6 point cage in the car anyway because that's a good way to tie the front and rear subframes together and that will really stiffen the car up, which I'll need to do for the salt. I can get a discount on the tubing by ordering it through work.

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                • #9
                  I think I cracked 100 in the quarter in high 14s with a Dodge truck.
                  My hobby is needing a hobby.

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                  • #10
                    I know this guy that just moved to Seattle and has a passion for making cars go fast, and knows a thing or 2 about the rule book... He will also be needing a machinist soon to start a new project. If you want his contact information to take a look at the car let me know, i'll get you in touch with him. :D

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                    • #11
                      Also a honda civic won't do 100 in the 1/4 but will do 130 in the 3mile at bonneville, its not as bad as you think. You'd also be surprised what a 50shot of nitrous will do at altitude, an old friend taught me that, been waiting to test it.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by greenjunk View Post
                        Also a honda civic won't do 100 in the 1/4 but will do 130 in the 3mile at bonneville, its not as bad as you think. You'd also be surprised what a 50shot of nitrous will do at altitude, an old friend taught me that, been waiting to test it.

                        Right but the 130mph club isn't 3 miles, it's 1. It's a standing mile, and no nitrous allowed. there is a reason only about 65 people have joined it.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by RockJustRock View Post
                          I think I cracked 100 in the quarter in high 14s with a Dodge truck.
                          think it's a typo? 100 mile 1/8th is somewhere around a 11 second quarter (maybe 125 in the quarter) and very loose calculations say about 650 hp or so at 4500 pounds. The trick is going to be getting it to plant the hp on the salt in a mile.

                          My only fear of drums would be heat buildup - they work pretty good ONCE. The next time you hit them, maybe not so good... until they cool down.
                          Last edited by Beagle; May 13, 2015, 05:46 AM.
                          Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Beagle View Post

                            think it's a typo? 100 mile 1/8th is somewhere around a 11 second quarter (maybe 125 in the quarter) and very loose calculations say about 650 hp or so at 4500 pounds. The trick is going to be getting it to plant the hp on the salt in a mile.

                            My only fear of drums would be heat buildup - they work pretty good ONCE. The next time you hit them, maybe not so good... until they cool down.

                            That was supposed to be 110 trap and 12 seconds.  The good news is the car is no where near 4500lbs.  Try more like 3800.  Unit body construction and no interior.

                            In any case the point is to be moving at around 85mph at the quarter on the salt. I'm thinking a swap to 3.92:1 gears and a sure grip diff and get the horse power up to around 400 should do the job. Scream through the mile traps at 6000rpm or so.

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                            • #15
                              a lot of salt guys ADD weight which is why I went a little heavy on the estimate.
                              Flying south, with a flock of bird dogs.

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