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  • #91
    Good to see you again. Glad Gail is doing well too.
    Ed, Mary, & 'Earl'
    HRPT LongHaulers, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19.


    Inside every old person is a young person wondering, "what the hell happened?"

    The man at the top of the mountain didn't fall there. -Vince Lombardi

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    • #92
      Thank-you Patrick, Bob (especially), Ed...it's nice to come stand by the fire again sometimes.

      For SBG, a couple of thoughts on manual transmission choices, just talking about what works ---for me---:

      Four-speeds are not enough.

      After ten years of running a Muncie M20 in my BB El Camino, stepping up to the Richmond 5spd used w/ 2.73 gears was the best money I spent. One aspect of that trans is 5th is 1:1, you're supposed to use it with tall rear gears and then it provides a short 3.20 first (others optional, I also used a 4-point-something for pulling a trailer for a while). If what you like to do is blast up long hills at 80-90 in 5th it's the best because you're not having to spin overdrive gears and make the trans work, you're in direct-connect. If you wind up driving in 4th a lot, now working the trans, the scheme would be a downside. In any event, I think maybe the Richmond's time is past with the new OD's available, particularly for people who are most likely to us final-drive just for crusing and kick it down to 4th when really on the throttle. Trans installation involves a Muncie-style shifter on the side of the trans mounted rearward a couple inches which is very likely to cause interference with a Corvette trans tunnel right where you need room for the driver's seat.

      My use of the early B-W T56 is partly because it's what I already have around. Supposedly they take 500 ft. lb, enough for my stock BB (plus I'm notoriously easy on drivetrains although I once split a Vega/Opel 4 speed down the middle). I'll be paying for that convenience when it comes time to connect up an old-time cable speedometer in either machining or funding somebody for machining, or using some-type gadget to adapt or substitute. Of-course new aftermarket ones may have provision. It's also appropriate for me as I'm wishing to pack up the two-cubic-feet behind the seats with overnight bags and do long highway trips with the wife, and there use the overdrive gears (dropping to 1:1 aka 4th for any hill blasts). For any normal use, do you really need six gears? My answer: No. I've done two long trips now in a buddy's T56 Hellcat, one from your area to here in two days, and you might as well just have the first five gears and call the last one "I-5" because Interstate 5 is the only place you'll be using it and even then not often.

      Another guy put a TKO 5-speed in a mid-year 'Vette, we'd also had that discussion about only needing a five-speed. He did use the close-ratio one and not pick the best rear end gears, it would have been good to plan better. For street use wide-ratios are the way to go, and the rear ratio really needs to be one chosen for the style of driving. Installation involved some-type kit and dropping the rear of the trans down a bit.

      I did once borrow a '75 Vette w/ a T-10 and Gear Vendors OD. I don't know how they fit it in there, it was done at the GV shop. Also with the ratio it was nearly pointless, why for all the money and trouble doesn't GV give you a full additional gear instead of just half of one? Few people need to "split" gears in an automobile.

      We know I plan to use an AX-15 in a G-body El Camino...someday... (300 ft/lbs) but that's a different-type car

      If I was starting from a clean sheet nowadays and wanted to spend the bucks, for the Corvette I'd sure look into the new TKX. We've been waiting for somebody to come along with a good aftermarket overdrive trans for musclecars, maybe this is it. Whatever mounting hassles involved would surely be worth it. At-least they look like they'd fit in the trans tunnel.

      ...

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      • #93
        Glad I poked you enough to get you back on here. If I’d change anything, I’d “pester” you more. Many times I’d pick up my phone to send an email only to be distracted.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Loren View Post
          Thank-you Patrick, Bob (especially), Ed...it's nice to come stand by the fire again sometimes.

          For SBG, a couple of thoughts on manual transmission choices, just talking about what works ---for me---:

          Four-speeds are not enough.

          After ten years of running a Muncie M20 in my BB El Camino, stepping up to the Richmond 5spd used w/ 2.73 gears was the best money I spent. One aspect of that trans is 5th is 1:1, you're supposed to use it with tall rear gears and then it provides a short 3.20 first (others optional, I also used a 4-point-something for pulling a trailer for a while). If what you like to do is blast up long hills at 80-90 in 5th it's the best because you're not having to spin overdrive gears and make the trans work, you're in direct-connect. If you wind up driving in 4th a lot, now working the trans, the scheme would be a downside. In any event, I think maybe the Richmond's time is past with the new OD's available, particularly for people who are most likely to us final-drive just for crusing and kick it down to 4th when really on the throttle. Trans installation involves a Muncie-style shifter on the side of the trans mounted rearward a couple inches which is very likely to cause interference with a Corvette trans tunnel right where you need room for the driver's seat.

          My use of the early B-W T56 is partly because it's what I already have around. Supposedly they take 500 ft. lb, enough for my stock BB (plus I'm notoriously easy on drivetrains although I once split a Vega/Opel 4 speed down the middle). I'll be paying for that convenience when it comes time to connect up an old-time cable speedometer in either machining or funding somebody for machining, or using some-type gadget to adapt or substitute. Of-course new aftermarket ones may have provision. It's also appropriate for me as I'm wishing to pack up the two-cubic-feet behind the seats with overnight bags and do long highway trips with the wife, and there use the overdrive gears (dropping to 1:1 aka 4th for any hill blasts). For any normal use, do you really need six gears? My answer: No. I've done two long trips now in a buddy's T56 Hellcat, one from your area to here in two days, and you might as well just have the first five gears and call the last one "I-5" because Interstate 5 is the only place you'll be using it and even then not often.

          Another guy put a TKO 5-speed in a mid-year 'Vette, we'd also had that discussion about only needing a five-speed. He did use the close-ratio one and not pick the best rear end gears, it would have been good to plan better. For street use wide-ratios are the way to go, and the rear ratio really needs to be one chosen for the style of driving. Installation involved some-type kit and dropping the rear of the trans down a bit.

          I did once borrow a '75 Vette w/ a T-10 and Gear Vendors OD. I don't know how they fit it in there, it was done at the GV shop. Also with the ratio it was nearly pointless, why for all the money and trouble doesn't GV give you a full additional gear instead of just half of one? Few people need to "split" gears in an automobile.

          We know I plan to use an AX-15 in a G-body El Camino...someday... (300 ft/lbs) but that's a different-type car

          If I was starting from a clean sheet nowadays and wanted to spend the bucks, for the Corvette I'd sure look into the new TKX. We've been waiting for somebody to come along with a good aftermarket overdrive trans for musclecars, maybe this is it. Whatever mounting hassles involved would surely be worth it. At-least they look like they'd fit in the trans tunnel.
          I agree 4 speeds are not enough, but for a different reason - outside of the A431, none are rated for the BBC torque. GM went back to a cast iron case to contain the late 70s Super Duty Pontiac - and still had troubles. I mention the A431 because I guess NASCAR is changing transmissions this year - so they may become readily available at year's end.

          I agree about the 6 speed - though from a budget perspective, they are remarkably value price, and they can be made almost bullet proof - and why I'm watching what you do with yours and how it fits.

          TKO - (and TKX - for higher rpm shifts)... the highest cost but it's a new transmission...

          Gear Vendors.... I plan on one behind the T400 in my Buick Sedanet as a cruising gear.... I don't cruise in the Corvette. It's totally not its point.

          I have the AW5* in my FJ40, it's survived quite well - granted, I have a NV4500 for it, but for now.... it works and has held up to what I've thrown at it. *for those not familiar, GM/Toyota approached Aisan Transmission to build a 5 speed for their small trucks. Aisan used what they learned from the NV3550 and AX15 to make the AW5 (Aisan/Warner). Basically, it's an AX15 with 26 spline input and 32 spline outputs....Inside, they're very similar.

          I've been looking at Doug Nash quite seriously. You can weigh in on this - Doug Nash makes 2 5 speeds, 1 is 1:1 top gear, the other is 4+1 - where the plus 1 is overdrive.... but outside, it's the same thing. At this point, I looked for a straight 5 speed, and didn't find anything... I do have a 4+1 available, though

          Doing it all wrong since 1966

          Comment


          • #95
            Glad to have you back and good to hear Gail is doing well . I hear all the time about 6th being useless but I love my ZF 6 speed with a 3.42 gear in the rear . I use 6th all the time from 50mph .
            Previously HoosierL98GTA

            Comment


            • #96
              Thanks, Dan.

              I'm willing to bet that you're in a less-hilly area with less traffic than I am to be able to use an effective 1.71 final drive very often (w/ my understanding of the ZF 6th being .5 same as the T56) but hey, whatever works is good. With a 27" rear tire, that should be 1,064 rpm @ 50.
              ------------

              So, how'd I do for precision-machining at all this, bolting on the trans front plate and using an indicator attached to the crankshaft to check concentricity? Not that great, center is off by .007" which is about equivalent to a carpenter being off by an inch or a valet-parker being off by a foot-and-a-half. Who knows what explains that but such a mis-alignment is not uncommon and offset alignment pins are available for just that number. After install and re-check I'm still off by .0015 but that's plenty close.
              Click image for larger version  Name:	DSC09486.JPG Views:	0 Size:	127.4 KB ID:	1304894

              Ever look inside a six-speed? There it is, enough extra room in there to hide drugs while crossing the border (we have to think about that in this corner of the country). Note the gear tooth pitch that has no less than three teeth in contact at any one time, when we're used to 1 with a Muncie M20 or 21 or less with a rock-crusher. This all adds a lot of thrust but tapered roller bearings at the ends takes care of it.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	DSC09487.JPG Views:	0 Size:	135.6 KB ID:	1304895

              So now, I want to use a mechanical clutch with this, no hydraulics. Is it possible to replace the F-body "pull-type" hyd. system with something like what the stock '72 Corvette had? Looking the front of the trans over and imagining where there might be room for a standard clutch fork pivot gets us a little space right where we need it. Convenient. I made this "thing" (I don't know what else to call it) that fastens through over here and just butts against the case over there and holds a pivot where it should be, as determined by using measurements from a regular (aka the old) bellhousing. I had the particular tap/thread size leftover from a previous project. It was necessary to machine away some of the cast-in gussets for clearance but not too much.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	DSC09488.JPG Views:	0 Size:	124.4 KB ID:	1304896

              And here it is bolted in. A portion of the front plate is machined away to let the clutch fork stick out the side, as seen to the right of the photograph. In doing that did I have to cut away anything important? Yes, the drivier-side locating pin position. I made up for it by taking the next-upwards mounting bolt hole, originally drilled for a 10mm (.394") + clearance, and precision-reamed it to take a 7/16" (.437" hole) bolt which will now double as a fastener and a locating pin. The original-for-the-trans clutch release hole is down a bit out of the photo.


              Click image for larger version  Name:	DSC09489.JPG Views:	0 Size:	92.8 KB ID:	1304897


              The input shaft sleeve was a smaller diameter than the usual release bearing inner, so I had to take a piece of sheetmetal and hand/hammer form it to fit inside and take up some space. It then fit too tight so it had to be machined back out a bit on the lathe. That grunge on the front of the trans will be cleaned away before the bearing is slipped on.


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              With the clutch release lever.

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              And, bolted up behind my stock-spec '72 LS-5. This motor was assembled from parts that came with the car which included a NOS GM forged crank, forged .030-over pistons, and an aftermarket-equivalent LS-5 cam. I added a few ARP fasteners. No hot rod and I bet it'll use 2gph just idling, but shouldn't it be able to take a little nitrous hit for those times we need a bit of passing power?

              That clean firewall is how I got the car. I had to source a whole 'nother one from a wrecked car to get the parts that go there such as A/C can, wiper stuff with it's magical lifting cover, and all the HVAC things on the other side..

              Click image for larger version  Name:	DSC09492.JPG Views:	0 Size:	138.9 KB ID:	1304902

              Side view shows the original clutch release location, below the present one. The trans crossmember I have is pretty bent and will need some press work, meanwhile a piece of iron channel will hold things in place.

              Click image for larger version  Name:	DSC09493.JPG Views:	0 Size:	80.4 KB ID:	1304903

              Next week I'll see if I can get the body set down for a test fit.



              Attached Files
              Last edited by Loren; August 28, 2021, 06:59 AM.
              ...

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              • #97
                clever stuff...
                Doing it all wrong since 1966

                Comment


                • #98
                  You will know that a manual-trans car has a welded-in crossmember so, whence a separate one here? We can see a welded-on clutch linkage tab, that looks factory... Judging by the original front clip this car had been in a good front-ender and it's possible the whole frame was replaced at one time, possibly one from an automatic, and new welding for the tab done to (lol) GM specs...

                  ...

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Loren View Post
                    You will know that a manual-trans car has a welded-in crossmember so, whence a separate one here? We can see a welded-on clutch linkage tab, that looks factory... Judging by the original front clip this car had been in a good front-ender and it's possible the whole frame was replaced at one time, possibly one from an automatic, and new welding for the tab done to (lol) GM specs...
                    you may not have been here when I was fixing my frame with heat, hammer and winch.... there is reason why my frame was sectioned in 3 equal pieces... and if I do swap trans, I get to figure out how to make the cross member bolted in... fun fun.
                    Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; August 28, 2021, 05:59 AM.
                    Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                    • These posts remind me of how much we've missed you! Interesting, creative solutions.

                      Dan

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                      • Thanks, Dan, while I'm not very good-looking I can assure you I know just enough to be dangerous. On my bucket list is to someday meet you personally and hear your story of the Vega, because I think that's the only way you will ever tell it...
                        ...

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                        • Originally posted by Loren View Post
                          Thanks, Dan, while I'm not very good-looking I can assure you I know just enough to be dangerous. On my bucket list is to someday meet you personally and hear your story of the Vega, because I think that's the only way you will ever tell it...
                          Not sure there's much to tell. If we ever get a handle on Covid ME and I want to make a trip in Vanna the van out West including California so it's not entirely impossible. Hopefully next Spring......

                          Dan

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Loren View Post
                            Thanks, Dan, while I'm not very good-looking I can assure you I know just enough to be dangerous. On my bucket list is to someday meet you personally and hear your story of the Vega, because I think that's the only way you will ever tell it...

                            you're asking the wrong person ask Dave Gansevoort - even if he doesn't know, he'll make something good up.... then go see Dan and watch him deny it ever happened
                            Doing it all wrong since 1966

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Loren View Post
                              Thanks, Dan.
                              I'm willing to bet that you're in a less-hilly area with less traffic than I am to be able to use an effective 1.71 final drive very often (w/ my understanding of the ZF 6th being .5 same as the T56) but hey, whatever works is good. With a 27" rear tire, that should be 1,064 rpm @ 50.
                              ------------
                              And mine come in at 24 to 25 inches . 274-40-17 which would make it big even less .
                              Last edited by Dan Barlow; August 28, 2021, 08:36 PM.
                              Previously HoosierL98GTA

                              Comment


                              • This could turn into a BangShift forums "Groupies" Challenge Drive 2022.....

                                Loren, hope your family is Ready for all these Rusty Iron Junkies "Camping Out" in Your Driveway like a 70's era "Dead Heads" Concert !!! Click image for larger version

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