This carb seemingly worked really good with the dual plane, 5 speed combo. It is interesting how different it acts with the single plane, automatic. I suppose there is a lot more throttle modulation with a 5 speed and that may mask some of the low rpm, high throttle input short comings.
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BBR's 83GT - turbo 302.... now with EFI!
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Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
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Did some data logs and have been comparing them a little.
First one is just as it was with the 5 speed. No changes. 67/75, 6.5 PV, vent tube extensions. 28/29 squirters, orange cam
This one is 65/75, 4.5 PV, no vent tube extensions, 28/29 squirters, orange cam.
The 3500-5500 rpm section is a little steeper (2 tenths of a second steeper, prob from leaner afr) on the second one but the AFR starts to trend upwards hitting 12.4 when I shifted/backed off. The original setup seemed to trend richer, although not as significantly, dipping all the way to 10.4.
Interestingly, it looks like the original one shows the AFR to be lean when I first get into the throttle. That does not seem to match what I remember seeing on the gauge, but the log doesn't lie. Maybe this thing was misfiring and acting goofy because it was wanting more fuel, not less....Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
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Today was a fun one. It is surprising the number of carb deficiencies that having a 5 speed/clutch can mask.
I took the intake hat and vent tube extensions off. Drove it and it stumbled and acted just like it had been. I started with 32/31 squirters and incremently drilled them to 35, 37 and ended on 39. That got it to not fall on it's face and actually spin the tires. It still is not right because it will launch, then build rpm slow then clean up and run good. Tried it with the tubes and hat on and it was the same.
Next up: going to baseline the idle transfer slot, and secondary plates, then block the primary PV. The low rpm bog seems to correspond with engine vacuum dropping below 6.5, the PV opening point.
I increased the PVCR's back when I did the blowthru conversion and I really think that was a mistake, at least for an automatic trans.
Last edited by BBR; September 26, 2020, 07:38 PM.Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
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Ok lets throw a little math at this situation. I read a good article by Jeff Smith on Jets, PV's and orifice sizes here:
https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...on-and-tuning/
When I did the blowthru, I increased the PCVR's to 0.075" following the guide at Hanger 18. I should have researched it a bit more before drilling to know exactly how much this was going to change things. Going to a 0.075" PVCR, with 67 primary jets is the equivalent flow of running the stock 0.038" PVCR's with 83 jets on the primary side. Yowza.
So when my PV opens, it suddenly goes from 67 mains to the equivalent of running an 83 main jet (+ PV enrichment.) For comparison's sake, the stock PCVR's + 67 jets flow the equivalent of a 73 jet.
I am going to borrow an un-modified metering block from a buddy, remove the hat, and see if it runs more, like I expect it should.
Last edited by BBR; September 28, 2020, 09:12 AM.Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
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I wish I felt like that. I swapped to a different metering block and it behaved exactly the same. Boo.
One thing I have not checked in all this is the float level. If it is screwed up and turns out to be the problem, I may give up on cars completely and just go ride dirt bikes. Haha.
Also, I have not ruled out this intake being a problem.
After all, it ran good with the other one. Maybe it is not sealing good or maybe the intake gasket is jacked up. I did bump it when I was putting the intake on, but I am 99% sure I got it back in the right place. It pulls 18-20in at idle so that seems good, but it has a pretty good rpm drop when you put it in gear. Which can be caused by a vacuum leak.Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
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Float levels are perfect.
I'm going to pull the carb and look in the intake, then maybe pull the intake and see what I can find.Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
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Judd and I pulled the intake and I am 98% sure I know what the problem is.
Compression test, 130-135 on all 8. There was the white evidence of moisture under the valve covers, but the oil is not milkshake. We pulled the intake and the gaskets were properly positioned, but there was some evidence of staining. It wasn't until I was driving home that I remembered the RTV on the china walls. It was completely squeezed out. I think the intake was bottoming on the china walls before snugging down tight on the intake gaskets and heads. The moisture would be from the coolant crossovers not sealing good.
The intake gaskets I used were 0.040" so I am going to research using thicker ones.
Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
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There's always something new to learn.
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I have almost decided to just put the Performer back on. I KNOW it fits and works and we have Buick V. Ford coming up real fast. I don't want to stick this one back on and then it maybe still have trouble and just end up back at the Performer again. Jonathan offered his Edelbrock Airgap that he is not using anymore. Might do that. The single plane was obviously designed for heads without and exhaust crossover because it *barely* has enough metal to seal it off.
Last edited by BBR; September 30, 2020, 12:10 PM.Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
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Almost done. Just a couple of small things to take care of and she is ready to run again.
I decided to go ahead and borrow the RPM Airgap from Jonathan. Big thanks to him!
Last edited by BBR; September 30, 2020, 07:22 PM.Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
- 2 likes
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It runs again after a mild moment of panic. It seems it does not run well when you leave the vacuum line unplugged and the megasquirt ungrounded. Kind of sounds like the camshaft is going flat. Yowza.
We corrected that and it runs good and idles good. We have not driven it yet because we ran out of time, but everything looks good so far.
Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
- 1 like
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I drove it and messed with it a lot on Saturday. It still had a HUGE stumble just as the throttle is yanked open. This time I played with pump cams on rhe primary and secondary sides. Lots of trial and error and the bigger I went, the better it liked it. It has what I would consider a pretty huge accelerator pump shot, which is probably crutching some issue, but it seems to work.
Previously the AFR was lean spiking to 18:1 when the throttle was yanked open from a dead stop. It would stumble around until it apparently created enough rpm to really start pulling fuel from the mains. Then it would take off and haul butt. Now it launches like the 200whp 302 it is. Nothing crazy, but once the boost ramps in, it gets exciting in a hurry.
Why the crazy big shot? I really think it is the combination of a 650 double pumper, a mild 302, a tight-ish converter, and 3.55 gears with 28" tall tires. With the 5 speed you could feed it all the rpm from a dead stop that you wanted. The carb never saw a <2000 rpm stall, WOT launch. Now with the automatic, suddenly the carb is seeing high throttle angles at low engine speeds and it has to fight to make air speed thru the venturis. The accel shot has to be big enough AND long enough to enrich the engine thru this transition. Otherwise it bogs and flops around like a tuna until it can pull enough fuel to run. I think a looser converter would make a world of difference, but for now we will just stick with this one and a big pump shot.
It is still pretty rich just before the boost ramps up, so some additional tuning may be in order.
Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
- 2 likes
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Drove it home at lunch today and it drives much better. Not perfect by any stretch, but at least it does not stumble and cough. The TV cable seems to need some adjustment. I does not want to downshift back to 1 when you come to a stop. You can click it to N and back to D and it is good. 4th is hit or miss but I may just not be going fast enough for 4th to click in. Just an annoyance really. WOT 1-2 upshift happens at 5500 rpm which is right about where I want it. It feels really good. I don't remember this car ever getting loose with the 5 speed, but it dang sure does with the automatic. I didn't really get a good 2-3 because it happens around 86 mph and that is a little sketchy in town. lol
MSDroid is pretty dang cool. I logged GPS data from the phone and it will display speed (updated every second, boo) and will allow you to view the datalog along with your location. This REALLY helps you remember what you were doing, when you were doing it, and where you were doing it.
Last edited by BBR; October 5, 2020, 06:12 PM.Life is short. Be a do'er and not a shoulda done'er.
1969 Galaxie 500 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...69-galaxie-500
1998 Mustang GT https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...ix-to-4sixzero
1983 Mustang GT 545/552/302/Turbo302 http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...485-bbr-s-83gt
1973 F-250 BBF Turbo Truck http://www.bangshift.com/forum/forum...uck-conversion
1986 Ford Ranger EFI 545/C6 https://bangshift.com/forum/forum/ba...tooth-and-nail
- 3 likes
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