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Drag Week 2012 - Project GIRTST 71 Mustang (get it right the second time)

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  • #31
    Bill, great car and great effort.

    I'm not bold enough to say that I know how to cool a 1,000hp drag car. However I have spent a lot of research, time and fabrication on how to cool a turbo charged roadracing car. One of the items that I believe you may want to investigate is how to direct and pressurize the air going through your various coolers. You've spent time addressing how the air comes out of the radiator, but there doesn't appear to be the effort (that I firmly believe is necessary) to duct, seal and condition the air in front of the coolers and radiator.

    There are a number of NACA research papers that are relevant. And applying the information has been very productive for my application.

    Additionally, you need to address how the air that has flowed through your coolers can exit the engine compartment. I work on the basis that I need to have as many inches of evacuation available as there are inches of radiator. Whether that means properly venting the hood (no, that does not mean an opening at the base of the windshield which is a high pressure region), or vents through the fenders or rear of the wheel wells.

    If my thoughts are of interest, I can post some pictures of our ducting, and I can dig up the NACA information. Suffice it to say that our methods caused the dyno operator that certed our hp/tq to comment that our car was unusual for the series that we compete in as it did not overheat. Our problem was trying to keep the car up to operating temp as it overcooled. And this is with a big ass intercooler in front of and sealed to the radiator front surface.

    I am concerned that some of the thoughts about separating cooling components are in fact detrimental. Think about what you want the air to do, and how to keep it from swirling, escaping and bleeding off pressure.

    Clearly you have to work within the packaging constraints that you have. But you'd be amazed at the impact if your thought process encompasses the air travel from the moment it enters your system to the moment it exits. That is...from in front of the grill (or it could be a bottom feeder) to the moment it re-enters the atmospheric air stream.

    I look forward to following your progress.
    Last edited by Bob Holmes; February 3, 2012, 09:57 PM.
    I'm still learning

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    • #32
      Hey Bob, I'd be interested in seeing those NACA docs. Sounds like some interesting reading.
      Rich

      Drag Week Survivor 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 - 2nd Place - Pro Street N/A, 2017

      Comment


      • #33
        I know what I would do with EFI, 1000hp, and a need to keep it cool. Get with Dieselgeek and set it up for E85.

        The turn signals in my 71 feel like ABS plastic, not sure if that is what they are or not. Most RC hobby epoxy should work on it, but I like the LED idea better than incandescent, mainly due to the heat. You dont want to melt the lens, which is a problem with some tail lights. As a turn signal, not a marker light, the heat should be minimal, but the LED setup is usually quite easy to install.

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        • #34
          I like the LED idea because he is already amp limited!
          Escaped on a technicality.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Bob Holmes View Post
            Bill, great car and great

            thanks Bob, you are exactly on point with what I'm trying to do and I can use all the help I can get.)

            I'm not bold enough to say that I know how to cool a 1,000hp drag car. However I have spent a lot of research, time and fabrication on how to cool a turbo charged roadracing car. One of the items that I believe you may want to investigate is how to direct and pressurize the air going through your various coolers. You've spent time addressing how the air comes out of the radiator, but there doesn't appear to be the effort (that I firmly believe is necessary) to duct, seal and condition the air in front of the coolers and radiator.

            You're right about the focus on in and out, and ducting, pressurization etc. is something I need to better understand. The drag race element for me is Drag Week and the True Street events, thirty mile drive followed by three hot laps. It's the open track , road course events that are the toughest

            There are a number of NACA research papers that are relevant. And applying the information has been very productive for my application.

            I'd very much appreciate any pointers you have to the NACA research

            Additionally, you need to address how the air that has flowed through your coolers can exit the engine compartment. I work on the basis that I need to have as many inches of evacuation available as there are inches of radiator. Whether that means properly venting the hood (no, that does not mean an opening at the base of the windshield which is a high pressure region), or vents through the fenders or rear of the wheel wells.

            With the new cooler locations I'm trying to direct the airflow through additional openings in the core support plus into the fender wells behind the headlight buckets, it's the design of the ducting and construction that I'm struggling with at the moment. I'm also looking ahead to an eventual intercooler for a boosted application. So bring on the ducting pictures!

            If my thoughts are of interest, I can post some pictures of our ducting, and I can dig up the NACA information. Suffice it to say that our methods caused the dyno operator that certed our hp/tq to comment that our car was unusual for the series that we compete in as it did not overheat. Our problem was trying to keep the car up to operating temp as it overcooled. And this is with a big ass intercooler in front of and sealed to the radiator front surface.

            The drag race issue is mostly lack of oil temp, with heat soak the issue with True Street. Drag Week is the drives between tracks in all kinds of weather and traffic conditions not to mention pulling a little trailer

            I am concerned that some of the thoughts about separating cooling components are in fact detrimental. Think about what you want the air to do, and how to keep it from swirling, escaping and bleeding off pressure.

            Clearly you have to work within the packaging constraints that you have. But you'd be amazed at the impact if your thought process encompasses the air travel from the moment it enters your system to the moment it exits. That is...from in front of the grill (or it could be a bottom feeder) to the moment it re-enters the atmospheric air stream.

            It's the exit from the engine compartment that is troubling. I opened up the shock towers a bit a few years ago and I'm looking at additional venting without cutting holes in the fenders or hood although I'm beginning to consider something like the new Gt500's and the ZL1 Camaro have. The cowl hood worked well as the drop in inlet air temps during a drag strip has exceeded 30* at tracks with moderate temps.

            I look forward to following your progress.
            I'm looking forward to your help.
            Last edited by CDMBill; February 5, 2012, 04:53 PM.
            Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

            Comment


            • #36
              I have made a little more progress on the cooling project as I've finished building the new cooler(s) mount and revised the lines for the oil supply form the filter to the cooler and on to the engine and I'm shortening the trans cooler lines for the new location.
              Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

              Comment


              • #37
                Hey Bill,

                Did you put the cooler right up against the radiator or do you have a gap? Mine is centered to the radiator but has about 3-4" of space between it and the rad. Since mine was consistently over 225 last year on the road, I am actually considering adding a second big B&M trans cooler. Since I'll be fabbing up a new mounting either way, I'm wondering if I should move it/them in and lessen the gap.

                Anyone else have an opinion on this???
                Rich

                Drag Week Survivor 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 - 2nd Place - Pro Street N/A, 2017

                Comment


                • #38
                  Bill - how much area do you have for cooling air flow below the bumper compared to through the grille?

                  Do you have any kind of "chin spoiler" or "air dam"

                  It may be another opportunity to get more air in, or locate a cooler down there (rock damage is a concern).

                  Comparing area of inlet to area of outlet is a great idea - as usual Bob brings up an excellent insight to the subject.

                  With the additional strengthening you've done to the subframe of the car, so you see any structural reason not to open up more exit area for heated air to leave the engine compartment over the sub frame between the "shock tower" and firewall?

                  From what I've seen on some newer cars, the firewall behind front suspension is a typical "exit area" for cooling air.

                  You might be able to incorporate an exit air duct in the front fender behind the wheel to "pull" air out of the engine compartment using the air rushing under the car to pull heated air out.... it's a "dirty air" area behind behind the wheel but it may be worth some experimenting.
                  There's always something new to learn.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Dignlif View Post
                    Hey Bill,

                    Did you put the cooler right up against the radiator or do you have a gap? Mine is centered to the radiator but has about 3-4" of space between it and the rad. Since mine was consistently over 225 last year on the road, I am actually considering adding a second big B&M trans cooler. Since I'll be fabbing up a new mounting either way, I'm wondering if I should move it/them in and lessen the gap.

                    Anyone else have an opinion on this???
                    Rich, I had a poor experince with the B&M plate style coolers but I've had no trans cooling issues since I went to the Eral's Setrab style cooler. I did have it right in fornt of the radiator last DW which didn't help engine cooling but the trans was fine even with the 6000 stall converter and the trailer. I used the same one in a more foreward location succesfully in 2006 and 2007.

                    This is the trans cooler in its new location.



                    I have a similar smaller cooler for oil. Also in its new location. Both will be ducted mostly behind the headlamp buckets in to wheel wells. There is a partital overlap of the transcooler with the radiator but it is five inches in front and offset.



                    This is the airflow view form the front.



                    Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by milner351 View Post
                      Bill - how much area do you have for cooling air flow below the bumper compared to through the grille?

                      Do you have any kind of "chin spoiler" or "air dam"

                      It may be another opportunity to get more air in, or locate a cooler down there (rock damage is a concern).

                      Comparing area of inlet to area of outlet is a great idea - as usual Bob brings up an excellent insight to the subject.

                      With the additional strengthening you've done to the subframe of the car, so you see any structural reason not to open up more exit area for heated air to leave the engine compartment over the sub frame between the "shock tower" and firewall?

                      From what I've seen on some newer cars, the firewall behind front suspension is a typical "exit area" for cooling air.

                      You might be able to incorporate an exit air duct in the front fender behind the wheel to "pull" air out of the engine compartment using the air rushing under the car to pull heated air out.... it's a "dirty air" area behind behind the wheel but it may be worth some experimenting.
                      I do have a factory style chin spoiler and I have a power steering fluid cooler mounted so that air that doesn't go through the radiator can go down through it behind the chin spoiler.

                      I have also opened up space in the shock towers when I was reinforcing them and relocating my upper comtrol arms for a btter camber curve. See inside engine compartment and fender well views.





                      I'm looking at how to add additional engine compartment venting between the shock tower and the firewall but I don't want water off the tires getting thrown up in the engine area so it may require louvers or some kind of inner fender well addition. I agree with Bob's ideas re the amount that goes in versus comes out, and although it all adds to aero drag, effective cooling comes first.
                      Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        This is one well thought our and excecuted mosheen. I look forward to seeing this beastie in person in September.
                        There's always something new to learn.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Today I finished sone rear suspension modifications I hope will help the car on the drag strip and the road course. I replaced the stock style shakles with Afco leaf spring sliders and re-located the shocks to a better more vertical position behind the rearend housing and four inches closer to the axle flange.



                          While both are pretty straight forward, they require a lot of measurements, and some minor metal fabrication and welding.

                          The Afco sliders come as a pair and instead of having the rear eye of the leaf swing back and forth and the spring comprresses and rebounds it simply slides in one plane on sealed roller bearings. It also increases lateral stiffness as the inherent flex in the bushing, even poly bushings as I had, allows the leaf flex laterally.





                          The only real "trick" to the install is the slot in the slider needs to follow an imaginary straight line drawn from the fornt spring eye back through the rear spring eye at the choosen ride height. That is why you see the angle in the mounting plates I fabricated for the slider assemblies. I located the sliders as close the the frame rail as possible effectively lowering the car about .75". I can add spacers under the slider assemblies with longer bolts to allow for taller tires or to increase ride height.

                          This next shot gives an idea of the orientation of the slider to the housing. The springs are Cal-trac split monoleafs.



                          The mounts are simple .25x1" plates with 3/8's 16 tapped holes to match those in the sliders. Joining them is a piece of .125 wall 1.5" square tube cut in a wedge shape to get the right mounting angle. I pre-welded the plates to the wedge tube and let the car down onto the mount and sliders checking the for and aft spacing as well as side to side alignment so there is no bind anywhere in the travel. You'll note that that the slot is not centered but is at about 2/3 back as that will allow full compression and leave plenty of room for separation which is key to launching a leaf spring, drag radial car.



                          After double checking alignment, suspension travel etc. I stitch welded the mounts using my trusty little Lincoln 110 Mig. BTW I carefully prepped the factory frame rails removing 41 years of crud, undercoating, paint and the factory galvanizing as welding galvanized metal can kill you. I was also working in a well ventilated area. Meaning the garage door was open.

                          The shock change was done to address a problem with the factory set up which has the shocks mounted at a 45* angle from the inside of the housing at the spring mount pad up towards the middle of the car. Another issue is that upper mount is buried behind the convertable bracing structure and the back seat making it hard to get to the compression adjuster on the Afco Double adjustable racing shocks. The problem with the 45* angle is that it cuts shock travel in half compared to the actual motion of the tire. The inward angle was helpful for lateral location on soft bushing stockers but was bad for handling power and controling the individual tires motions on the live axle.

                          With the lateral stiffness managed by the solid front bushing and the rear slide the shock be moved to more idela location for control. Getting the axle mount as close to the tire as possible maximizes separation of input to each shock allowing for more tuning options. The lower mount is a 1.75" piece of .5" ID .125 wall DOM steel tube. Its welded to the aftermarket leaf spring pad so that a 4' AN bolt will slide through and be just long enough to mount the shock with a nylock nut on it. I used a similer set up in the stock location for the Afco's with no problems.



                          I tried a lot of different locations and angles with the tires in place and the different brake set-ups I use to be sure everything would clear during the full range of axle motion. I figure out that I could put the upper mount between the stock inner fender well and the unibody frame rail. My tubs are large but stock width because the convertable top folds down in between them not allowing for mini-tubbing. I can fit a 325/50/15 drag radail on a 6.5' back space wheel and that has to be enough.

                          For the upper mount i used some scrap 1.75' .125 wall mild steel tube cut 2.25" long. I made a cap out of some big washers I had laying around.





                          I used the larger diameter washer to create a flange for easier welding and so I could grind off parts to fit the trunk location and give me more surfaces to weld in the thin sheet metal. The most interesting part was setting up the angle and then using a 1.75" hole saw the make the round cut. I used the 2.25" tube has it would partly cut through the inner fenderwell and the frame rail material and would create a pocket for the upper shock mount.



                          The hole intercepts the reinforcing plate for the rear rollcage brace. I ground away the weld as much as I could because weld material is harder than the surrounding steel and will kill the hole saw. From the bottom view the hole is in line with the axis of the shock. The shock extends up through the hole.



                          I had to be very careful to set the height of the upper mount to allow for full travel of the shcok from ride height for compression and extension. If you top out the shock om launch the car will unload and spin the tires. I'll post the final installed pictures tomorrow.
                          Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

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                          • #43
                            Lot's of tedious measurements - measure 8x cut once! Nice work Bill.
                            There's always something new to learn.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Looking good Big Guy!
                              2007 SBN/A Drag Week Winner & First only SBN/A Car in the 9's Till 2012
                              First to run in the .90s .80s and .70's in SBN/A
                              2012 SSBN/A Drag Week Winner First in the 9.60's/ 9.67 @ 139 1.42 60'
                              2013 SSBN/A Drag Week, Lets quit sand bagging, and let it rip!

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                              • #45
                                So here is the final view of the upper mount welded into the chassis with the shock in place. The adjuster is now easy to get to and somewhat protected form stuff in the trunk during the between track drives.





                                Everything tucks in nicely. I am going to swap the calipers to the front mounting position to make a bit more room and its necessary when using the six piston brakes for road course.



                                The folded tin box to which I'd attached the trailer hitch/reciever/parachute mount was completly inadequate so as part of the changes I removed it and replaced it with a length of 2"x1.5" .125 wall rectangular tube. It reinforces the frame ends for the sliders as well as giving a really solid mount for the receiver tube.



                                Drag Week 2006 & 2012 - Winner Street Race Big Block Naturally Aspirated - R/U 2007 Broke DW '05 and Drag Weekend '15 Coincidence?

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