'67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

[99_ls1]

I posted deep into an old thread if anybody knew where I could get a hood pan and air cleaner for a '67 Firebird 400 hood - but a more pertinent question from the technical perspective comes to mind this pm...

My car is a Firebird, but I've got a 355 Small Block in it. Does anybody know if the carb stud location on a small block (in a FB) would end up anywhere near the stud location on a Pontiac such that the idea would work? Stock 1st Gen subframe and stock mounts apply.

[Claus Moeller]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

Don't know if it will center same place as a pontiac engine, but it is possible to make a (much better) cowl induction from the rear (same as nascar)..

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

If I remember my history right, the Pontiac engine was located slightly rearward compared to the Chevy because DeLorean wanted a sports car and got the Camaro F-body. To even out the weight distribution (if only minimallly) the engine was set farther back. I just remember reading that somewhere if I can find the source I'll post it.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

Ok, found the reference, it's in "Pontiac Muscle Cars" by Mueller. pg 78

"What critics couldn't deny, however, was that the Firebird was initially superior to the Camaro beneath the skin, thanks to an engineering tweak or two developed too late to make Chevy's F-body lineup. The Firebird's engine was located farther back than the Camaro's, improving weight balance, while the rear springs were reinforced with radius rod traction bars to combat axle hop under hard acceleration."

Doesn't give spec's, but I'd guess it to be a few inches. It always appeared to me that the pontiac engine's in the first gen's sat farther back, but it could have been an optical illusion from the larger nose in front.

[99_ls1]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

Thanks, I wouldn't doubt that the FB had it set back more than the Camaro. I still have to go up to DSE and get one of their low-profile wiper kits because I can't get the valve cover off without pulling the wiper motor, and they aren't even tall covers. Guess I'll have to improvise...

[Eric68]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

Ok, found the reference, it's in "Pontiac Muscle Cars" by Mueller. pg 78

"What critics couldn't deny, however, was that the Firebird was initially superior to the Camaro beneath the skin, thanks to an engineering tweak or two developed too late to make Chevy's F-body lineup. The Firebird's engine was located farther back than the Camaro's, improving weight balance, while the rear springs were reinforced with radius rod traction bars to combat axle hop under hard acceleration."

Doesn't give spec's, but I'd guess it to be a few inches. It always appeared to me that the pontiac engine's in the first gen's sat farther back, but it could have been an optical illusion from the larger nose in front.

I think it would be an optical illusion personally. The distributor on an SBC Camaro nearly hits the firewall (in fact dimples are often required when installing a larger HEI) and there is very little room for setback in the trans tunnel for the bell housing to move back (and the Pontiac bell housing is taller than the Chevy). I also know that the cross-members are the same between the two cars so I don't know how they could move the engine back in the Firebird enough to make any real difference.

I would also disagree that "the Firebird was initially superior to the Camaro beneath the skin" (ie: Transam series '68-'69) but I am personally biased. LOL

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

I think would think the pontiac motor mounts bolt closer to the front of the engine to accomplish the shift. The pontiac distibutor is also kissing the firewall. As for the Bellhousing... it's really a minimal difference, as I bolted a 700R4 trans in my Firebird and the difference between the top center chevy bolt vs the two ear's on the BOP's isn't much vertically and there is room horizontally to clear the valve covers. (And for reference, I never had clearance issues pulling the valve covers on the '69 Firebird.

I would also disagree that "the Firebird was initially superior to the Camaro beneath the skin" (ie: Transam series '68-'69) but I am personally biased. LOL

I think the article was only referring to the '67 model year (I only copied an excerpt about 1967, it wasn't a First Gen generalization). Had a few suspension mod's, the big one was in the convertibles having the dampeners in the four corners, which the Camaro didn't have until the '68 model year. I could argue with you until next Thursday superiority of the Firebird but I'm a little bias too ;)

[Scott Liggett]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

Ok, found the reference, it's in "Pontiac Muscle Cars" by Mueller. pg 78

"What critics couldn't deny, however, was that the Firebird was initially superior to the Camaro beneath the skin, thanks to an engineering tweak or two developed too late to make Chevy's F-body lineup. The Firebird's engine was located farther back than the Camaro's, improving weight balance, while the rear springs were reinforced with radius rod traction bars to combat axle hop under hard acceleration."

Doesn't give spec's, but I'd guess it to be a few inches. It always appeared to me that the pontiac engine's in the first gen's sat farther back, but it could have been an optical illusion from the larger nose in front.

Since John Delorean was running Pontiac at that time; I doubt very much he would let his pony car be out done by the Camaro. He was all about violating GM edicts in the name of performance. He is the one who violated GM's edict by stuffing a big V-8 into the A body and thus creating the muscle car.

I think it would be an optical illusion personally. The distributor on an SBC Camaro nearly hits the firewall (in fact dimples are often required when installing a larger HEI) and there is very little room for setback in the trans tunnel for the bell housing to move back (and the Pontiac bell housing is taller than the Chevy). I also know that the cross-members are the same between the two cars so I don't know how they could move the engine back in the Firebird enough to make any real difference.

I would also disagree that "the Firebird was initially superior to the Camaro beneath the skin" (ie: Transam series '68-'69) but I am personally biased. LOL

[Eric68]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

I think would think the pontiac motor mounts bolt closer to the front of the engine to accomplish the shift. The pontiac distibutor is also kissing the firewall. As for the Bellhousing... it's really a minimal difference, as I bolted a 700R4 trans in my Firebird and the difference between the top center chevy bolt vs the two ear's on the BOP's isn't much vertically and there is room horizontally to clear the valve covers. (And for reference, I never had clearance issues pulling the valve covers on the '69 Firebird.

I would also disagree that "the Firebird was initially superior to the Camaro beneath the skin" (ie: Transam series '68-'69) but I am personally biased. LOL

I think the article was only referring to the '67 model year (I only copied an excerpt about 1967, it wasn't a First Gen generalization). Had a few suspension mod's, the big one was in the convertibles having the dampeners in the four corners, which the Camaro didn't have until the '68 model year. I could argue with you until next Thursday superiority of the Firebird but I'm a little bias too ;)

This is interesting . . .

As I recall the Firebird was out late in 67 . . . didn't it have something to do with Delorean's Banshee project getting dropped? As a result he had the Camaro to work with and needed to be different. They made the changes to sheetmetal obviously and the other more subtle difference -- this took time and as a result they were out late. I always thought the differences between the two were more due to wanting to be different (as opposed to performance) with styling and trim in an effort to appeal to a more "upscale" crowd than the Camaro -- kind of like FOMOCO did with the Mustang and Cougar.

I'd be interested in hearing all the differences between the 1st gen Firebird and Camaro -- bet there are more than most people think.

[TheSilverBuick]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

Yeah it was due to DeLorean's Banshee project getting the axe. With a few more R&D months to work with some changes were made. I'm not sure how many, that could make an interesting list. The 67's probably had the most differences. And TAman1969 is selling axles and states that the First Gen Firebird's axles are an inch wider than the First Gen Camaro's (http://www.carjunkieforums.com/index.php?topic=1262.0) First I've heard of that but it doesn't really surprise me since there wasn't a corporate rear end then and widening the rear would be part of a handling modification.

[Eric68]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

Yeah, I can tell you that the 8.2" 10 bolt was different between Chevy and BOP. The BOP had better axles (more splines?) if I remember correctly and I think they used an Auburn style posi (the cone type)

[Claus Moeller]

Re: '67 Firebird Ram Air hood & a small block?

As the transmission-mounts are the same in camaro's and Firebirds and also the fact that the driveshafts are interchangable would amount to the engine is a 'slave' to where the transmission is mounted.

-Maybe the engine mounts are placed further back on the engine-block ,-thereby visually cheating the onlookers..