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  • Butt welds on patch panels


    I've always said we should be using butt welds, and trimming panels as tightly as we can get them. Some recent shop work helps to show that process, so hopefully this will help out someone with patch panels.


    The owner of the Biederman truck we had done all those rust repairs and fabrications on also has a 51 Ford F7 with a Rollback body. He was driving it down the road a few months back when the Delco Remy voltage regulator on the firewall malfunctioned and resulted in an electrical fire. The heat caused some of the filler on the outside of the hood above the fire to delaminate, showing up as circles in the paint. As we sanded these defects out it was noticed that an abundance of filler (+1/4") had been used. The more we looked, the more filler we found all over the hood. In an effort to yield some weight savings, the entire outside of the hood was stripped..





    In order to have free access for planishing out the Atlantic Ocean defects, the hood brace was removed from the inside...








    This revealed more defects that the last shop saw as fixes, but they won't leave my shop like that....
    Rather than butt weld in the proper thickness metal, a piece of about 16 gauge is slipped behind the rust hole area (from dirt accumulating between brace and hood skin) and MIG welded around the perimeter. I think we can improve on that..








    In addition to that, the brace had lost it's structural integrity, so we will remake the ends..








    To start our repairs, a body sweep is used to capture the lower flange profile. Note that a profile cut out of construction paper/cardboard works as well.





    Verifying the panel thickness. Despite this being an early 50's truck, despite this being a BIG truck, yes, the outer sheet metal here is STILL only 19 gauge.





    The affected area was cut out using an air body saw, use what you have available. Note we have no corners in the cut to help improve consistency in weld shrinkage on either side.





    The flange bend line is traced from our profile template/body sweep, and bent using tipping wheel on the bead roller (since it's not a straight bend). Here test fitted to the hood..





    An Ice Pick (something everyone should have if doing this type of work) is used to mark the area of the cut and more importantly, the cuts for the flanges.





    Next we trim the panel on the band saw leaving 1/4" extra around our marks. Next, we use offset snips and trim the flanges to the lines scribed. And ONLY the flanges.. Then the panel is re-fitted with the flanges flush with the original, and RE-scribe the round line, this time with more force to see the mark better.

    Note the scribe line has moved closer toward the flange as we located the panel correctly with flanges flush..





    Fitted... panel should be as tight as you can get it to minimize any shrinking/pulling.





    Flanges and outer surface are both aligned to the original first and I use TIG to tack on the exact corner on both ends to maintain this alignment.. Side note.... tacking only one end and working around to the other may shrink as you go, pulling other end down where it no longer aligns. So in this case, align both ends, tack both ends, and then progressively work your tacks side to side toward the bottom of the circle.





    Note here the flange was left long on our replacement. Trying to weld it in place already trimmed to fit will invariably cause the edge to burn back, making it more difficult to weld this seam all the way to the edge. Leaving the flange on our patch long makes the outer part serve as a heat sink where this burn back effect is less of an issue. Once the welds are dressed, trim the excess using offset snips..


    Last edited by MP&C; March 19, 2020, 08:29 PM.
    DanStokes and oletrux4evr like this.
    Robert



    Instagram @ mccartney_paint_and_custom


    MP&C Youtube Channel

  • #2
    Same consistency as always. Artistry.
    Ed, Mary, & 'Earl'
    HRPT LongHaulers, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19.


    Inside every old person is a young person wondering, "what the hell happened?"

    The man at the top of the mountain didn't fall there. -Vince Lombardi

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    • #3
      Nice work. But i ve nevervbeen a fan of the over restored . Or rebuilt with trim/panel gaps that the factories would never even dreamed of in the era of yhe vehicle . When the trim/ panel fit is over done it IS art but the vehicle loses it's character it had becomimg straighter than even the best one off the line would've ever been.
      Last edited by Eric; March 19, 2020, 12:37 PM.

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      • #4
        I admit to laughing at some of the TV personalities leaving 1/16" or even larger gap in panels - who then claim they fill the space.... too bad they never show the 8 hours with a hammer trying to stretch the metal back into shape .... bonus points to the ones who use MIG to fill the gap.... the only time tight is a problem is if it isn't tight throughout the weld path... wherever there's a gap, there will be an opportunity for stretching
        Doing it all wrong since 1966

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        • #5
          Originally posted by SuperBuickGuy View Post
          I admit to laughing at some of the TV personalities leaving 1/16" or even larger gap in panels - who then claim they fill the space.... too bad they never show the 8 hours with a hammer trying to stretch the metal back into shape .... bonus points to the ones who use MIG to fill the gap.... the only time tight is a problem is if it isn't tight throughout the weld path... wherever there's a gap, there will be an opportunity for stretching
          That texas metal guy said he leaves 3/16th between square tube on chassis builds. I have seen chamfering 3/16ths, but spacing them 3/16 apart is guaranteeing its weld in there and not melted metal from both sides.
          oletrux4evr likes this.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by anotheridiot View Post

            That texas metal guy said he leaves 3/16th between square tube on chassis builds. I have seen chamfering 3/16ths, but spacing them 3/16 apart is guaranteeing its weld in there and not melted metal from both sides.
            also guarantees that it isn't dimensionally accurate. You put molten metal in-between those two, cold pieces of metal... it's going to shrink together, not if, it will because molten metal contracts 1/3 of its size... in that case, it's 1/8 inch now between those two points. Of course, the welds top and bottom keep the metal from pulling together, thus putting the spaced metal under tension - which eventually will crack... if you're concerned about penetration, chamfer both sides or increase your heat to get adequate penetration.... you don't just space the metal apart, that severely weakens the joint.
            Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; March 19, 2020, 03:28 PM.
            Doing it all wrong since 1966

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            • #7
              Thanks for the comments guys!


              Originally posted by Eric View Post
              Nice work. But i ve nevervbeen a fan of the over restored . Or rebuilt with trim/panel gaps that the factories would never even dreamed of in the era of yhe vehicle . When the trim/ panel fit is over done it IS art but the vehicle loses it's character it had becomimg straighter than even the best one off the line would've ever been.

              Perhaps I poorly worded the title, I was referring to the gaps when trimming patch panels. changed it..
              Last edited by MP&C; March 19, 2020, 08:32 PM.
              Robert



              Instagram @ mccartney_paint_and_custom


              MP&C Youtube Channel

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              • #8
                Originally posted by MP&C View Post
                Thanks for the comments guys!





                Perhaps I poorly worded the title, I was referring to the gaps when trimming patch panels. changed it..
                Nothing against the skill and work done. It is an art form, skill . Like the post , but what would they have done repair wise when this vehicle was just another tool used daily . I know many cringe when they see old body repairs as many are not what would be allowed outvthe door today , but they tell the vehicles history and a story of part of it's life.

                A friend is working on an unloved car .. When he stripped the body he wantef to kill the person that reapired it earlier in it's life, I said that who ever did the repair that way most likely saved it from being junked . THat at one time it was just another used car and not a 30 yearvold classic. TO grtvhim to understand what i ment, I asked if he would restore this car back to 100 point showroom , he stated no it cost 6 times what the car is worth. I said ,when the repair he was commenting on was done, doing it correctly cost was more that the car was worth. They did a repair to grtvit back into use. I think many of the vehicles we now restore rebuild have this sins/repairs, because at one time the vehicle was just another used vehicle that, a correct repair would have cost too much and the vehicle would be no more. Maybe i'm twiisted , but i see these type repairs as what saved the vehicle from death, and why we can still enjoy many of them. I'm sure body and metal fab. Guys/gals twitch when they uncover these type repairs, but i se it as what saved it.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Eric View Post

                  Nothing against the skill and work done. It is an art form, skill . Like the post , but what would they have done repair wise when this vehicle was just another tool used daily . I know many cringe when they see old body repairs as many are not what would be allowed outvthe door today , but they tell the vehicles history and a story of part of it's life.

                  A friend is working on an unloved car .. When he stripped the body he wantef to kill the person that reapired it earlier in it's life, I said that who ever did the repair that way most likely saved it from being junked . THat at one time it was just another used car and not a 30 yearvold classic. TO grtvhim to understand what i ment, I asked if he would restore this car back to 100 point showroom , he stated no it cost 6 times what the car is worth. I said ,when the repair he was commenting on was done, doing it correctly cost was more that the car was worth. They did a repair to grtvit back into use. I think many of the vehicles we now restore rebuild have this sins/repairs, because at one time the vehicle was just another used vehicle that, a correct repair would have cost too much and the vehicle would be no more. Maybe i'm twiisted , but i see these type repairs as what saved the vehicle from death, and why we can still enjoy many of them. I'm sure body and metal fab. Guys/gals twitch when they uncover these type repairs, but i se it as what saved it.
                  a life goal is one of my early cars ending up on one of the bitch and moan auto TV shows - what would be even better if it was from when I was flipping cars....
                  Last edited by SuperBuickGuy; March 19, 2020, 10:13 PM.
                  Eric likes this.
                  Doing it all wrong since 1966

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eric View Post

                    Nothing against the skill and work done. It is an art form, skill . Like the post , but what would they have done repair wise when this vehicle was just another tool used daily . I know many cringe when they see old body repairs as many are not what would be allowed outvthe door today , but they tell the vehicles history and a story of part of it's life.

                    A friend is working on an unloved car .. When he stripped the body he wantef to kill the person that reapired it earlier in it's life, I said that who ever did the repair that way most likely saved it from being junked . THat at one time it was just another used car and not a 30 yearvold classic. TO grtvhim to understand what i ment, I asked if he would restore this car back to 100 point showroom , he stated no it cost 6 times what the car is worth. I said ,when the repair he was commenting on was done, doing it correctly cost was more that the car was worth. They did a repair to grtvit back into use. I think many of the vehicles we now restore rebuild have this sins/repairs, because at one time the vehicle was just another used vehicle that, a correct repair would have cost too much and the vehicle would be no more. Maybe i'm twiisted , but i see these type repairs as what saved the vehicle from death, and why we can still enjoy many of them. I'm sure body and metal fab. Guys/gals twitch when they uncover these type repairs, but i se it as what saved it.
                    So we can put EFI, MSD, electric fans, aluminum heads different cams, bigger wheels, better brakes better tires BUT we can't improve the quality of the sheet metal?

                    Interesting line to draw in the sand.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Eric View Post

                      Nothing against the skill and work done. It is an art form, skill . Like the post , but what would they have done repair wise when this vehicle was just another tool used daily . I know many cringe when they see old body repairs as many are not what would be allowed outvthe door today , but they tell the vehicles history and a story of part of it's life.

                      A friend is working on an unloved car .. When he stripped the body he wantef to kill the person that reapired it earlier in it's life, I said that who ever did the repair that way most likely saved it from being junked . THat at one time it was just another used car and not a 30 yearvold classic. TO grtvhim to understand what i ment, I asked if he would restore this car back to 100 point showroom , he stated no it cost 6 times what the car is worth. I said ,when the repair he was commenting on was done, doing it correctly cost was more that the car was worth. They did a repair to grtvit back into use. I think many of the vehicles we now restore rebuild have this sins/repairs, because at one time the vehicle was just another used vehicle that, a correct repair would have cost too much and the vehicle would be no more. Maybe i'm twiisted , but i see these type repairs as what saved the vehicle from death, and why we can still enjoy many of them. I'm sure body and metal fab. Guys/gals twitch when they uncover these type repairs, but i se it as what saved it.

                      First, thanks for the comments! To an extent yes. However, I feel much of what you see in "hack work" is based on an enthusiast's abilities and /or tooling limitations. They may lack the skill or have just seen too much work that follows the same path and now see that as how things are done. I just want to put out another method for them to see, that perhaps there is a better method. BTW, this truck was completed less than 10 years ago, so I would have expected better. In the "professional" world, where the insurance industry wags the tail, there seems to be little pride of workmanship left, but they are driving that. And while I know this isn't 100% the case, here is a look into a shop from the 40's-50's as a reply I got from this topic on another forum:

                      Boy
                      , that original fix was one butt-ugly patch job! Yours looks much nicer, and I'll bet little if any body filler will be needed. Some of the body men our family shop employed back in the late 1940's and early 50's considered it to be a matter of personal pride to use no filler (lead) and metal-finish their work well enough to use only primer and paint to finish the job.
                      ….and I also realize this wasn't 100% the norm back then either. Most of my posts showing this type work are to reach out to the enthusiast to perhaps show another method, that they see the difference between what we started with here and what it will become. If what they see in my posts convinces them to just attempt to improve their methods for better results (less hackish), then my posts have accomplished my goal.

                      Just to clear the air, I am not a bodyman (far too slow), I fall more into the category of a metalshaper. Typically this group does try to make repairs that lean toward original. I also see the repairs as a reflection of the shop, of someone's pride in workmanship, and a contributing factor to the value of the vehicle. If someone were to buy this vehicle in the future, sure it may never sell for what the owner has in it. But I don't think the workmanship that gets put in (at whatever level that may be) should negatively affect the value it does have just because someone looked at the backside/underside of something and notices a botched repair. I'd rather them not see the repair.
                      Last edited by MP&C; March 20, 2020, 05:18 AM.
                      Robert



                      Instagram @ mccartney_paint_and_custom


                      MP&C Youtube Channel

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MP&C View Post
                        ... Just to clear the air, I am not a bodyman (far too slow), I fall more into the category of a metalshaper...
                        The quality of the work you have shown us here, is phenomenal! I would clearly classify you as an artisan

                        74NovaMan and oletrux4evr like this.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by cstmwgn View Post

                          So we can put EFI, MSD, electric fans, aluminum heads different cams, bigger wheels, better brakes better tires BUT we can't improve the quality of the sheet metal?

                          Interesting line to draw in the sand.
                          No idea. Your parts market is different than other places in the world. You can buy a new part for 1/20th of what those outside your country can. Even if I could afford a set of aftermarket heads., by the time they crossed customs .you could by a fully dressed crate engine. Life is not the same around the world.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MP&C View Post


                            First, thanks for the comments! To an extent yes. However, I feel much of what you see in "hack work" is based on an enthusiast's abilities and /or tooling limitations. They may lack the skill or have just seen too much work that follows the same path and now see that as how things are done. I just want to put out another method for them to see, that perhaps there is a better method. BTW, this truck was completed less than 10 years ago, so I would have expected better. In the "professional" world, where the insurance industry wags the tail, there seems to be little pride of workmanship left, but they are driving that. And while I know this isn't 100% the case, here is a look into a shop from the 40's-50's as a reply I got from this topic on another forum:



                            ….and I also realize this wasn't 100% the norm back then either. Most of my posts showing this type work are to reach out to the enthusiast to perhaps show another method, that they see the difference between what we started with here and what it will become. If what they see in my posts convinces them to just attempt to improve their methods for better results (less hackish), then my posts have accomplished my goal.

                            Just to clear the air, I am not a bodyman (far too slow), I fall more into the category of a metalshaper. Typically this group does try to make repairs that lean toward original. I also see the repairs as a reflection of the shop, of someone's pride in workmanship, and a contributing factor to the value of the vehicle. If someone were to buy this vehicle in the future, sure it may never sell for what the owner has in it. But I don't think the workmanship that gets put in (at whatever level that may be) should negatively affect the value it does have just because someone looked at the backside/underside of something and notices a botched repair. I'd rather them not see the repair.
                            Oh I love the post. I guess my thoughts is from you tube videos and reading builds on the web . Where many either forget at one time they were just used vehicles . Or the over the top show car builds that never get used . I'm sure those that bring a vehicle to a big name builder know going in it will be a show stopper and what they went there for. But it seems that many YouTube builders are also pushing for perfect . Nothing wrong with that if you are ok with driving it . But if after it gets finished it is more garage art than driven . To each their own. AS for your comment on the work on that truck is only ten years old. I'd think the auction industry has pushed many a vehicle though a resto or build. With just get it to look good under the lights . Is it right. My gut says no. But I ll venture to hazard a guess that it happens a lot. Again love your post. I learn a lot.

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                            • #15
                              I think you will be pleasantly surprised to find that the folks here drive some very nice vehicles, but more importantly they do what is needed to keep them in excellent condition. There are many show-quality cars driven on the Power Tour, and many of them are driven by members here at BangShift. While it is true we in the US do have the capability to do so, it is also a reflection of how dedicated this bunch (and others) are to keeping the tradition alive and as high-quality as feasible.
                              Ed, Mary, & 'Earl'
                              HRPT LongHaulers, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19.


                              Inside every old person is a young person wondering, "what the hell happened?"

                              The man at the top of the mountain didn't fall there. -Vince Lombardi

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