Roller lifter bleed down

[Lit549]

Im sure its discussed somehwere in here but i cant find it..
Im having issues with serious clattering upon start up, it is horrible, once the oil is hot and i shut it off to say go in to pay for gas, the valve trane clatters bad. It takes a few minutes for the lifters to pump back up.
This is a All new 383 with aluminum heads and a 231/236@50 roller cam with ls7 lifters, 1.5 rockers. The engine builder says "it just comes with the territory" on a roller cam, well i didnt pay 5500$ for a engine that sounds like dogshit. It runs great once they pump up♂️.
After emailing him again and again he said i could set the lifter preload and it wouldnt void the "warranth". He also offered to send a new set of ls7 lifters but "itll do the same thing". He suggested a more quiet lifter Gaterman pn# gp-1001..
Ive called Comp, they just quickly say the same thing, "comes with the territory".. I removed the valve covers and adjusted the valves but i checked them first and man, they ALL are easy to push down on the pushrod side of rocker.. This is a 450hp 383 and they use in house camshaft/heads, although the specs of the cam are almost identical to the comp xr282.. At this point im about ready to sell it and go ls, ive never had one this bad with lifter bleed down.. Oil pressure is good, and i run the suggested gibbs oil.. Any suggestions?? I also noticed the rollers arent centered on the valve stem, ill try to post pics.

[anotheridiot]

I never even knew about this, glad you posted about it. Personally, I do not know how you can possibly set valve lash again on a lifter that bleeds down this fast. I go outside after my van sits for a week and I never hear lifter noise on a 2003 with a 6.0 LS and 160K miles. If I question anything, since its is a known noisy package with those heads is look into the specs on the valve springs. Looks like a spring that will not bounce at 6500 rpm's. I know the springs are key on high RPM motors, just wondering if the whole problem with this combination for people that do now want their engine to sound like a 1976 pontiac lies in a far too heavy spring.

[squirrel]

I have two big blocks with Comp retrofit hydraulic roller lifters. They don't have this problem.

As far as the rocker alignment...it's not perfect, but I doubt it will cause any problems. If there's room around the pushrods, you could do some work on the guide plates to get them closer to center, if you really feel it's necessary.

I guess that's the thing about having someone else build an engine for you, eh? If you want it right, you have to do it yourself. And you need the experience to know how to do it all right, the first time. Good luck!

[Lit549]

Hey i apprecoate the responses.. I was thinking the same thing about the valve springs but i have no idea where theybare as far as pressures, they didnt really want to tell me the cam specs it seems, like its some huge secret. I had this same issue on my last hotrod, but this one is even worse! It is a very reputable builder too.. No one seems to have an answer for the issue, maybe i need to call Howards, Lunati, and Johnson to see what they say.
Its really embarrassing at the car shows, or hell, getting gas for that matter, lol.. I have friends with way more radical cams and not one issue like this.. Setting them is definately different as you have to feel exactly when zero lash occurs, so easy to get it wrong with lifters you can push down so easy. I have 5500$ just in the long block!. Guess we will find out cause im gonna do whatever it takes to fix it(eventually)..
As far as the alignment, i think i can use some adjustable guide plates but idk if its that big of a deal from what i read.

[Beagle]

It takes a few minutes (???!) for the lifters to pump up? Ummm... sounds suspect. If it's got oil pressure, that should be a pretty much right now kind of thing.

I'd check the preload to be sure it's right. If they get better when they are fully warm, it's warming up and closing up tolerances. "Minutes" sounds like they are set loose to begin with, like maybe they were set 1/4 turn instead of a 1/2 turn preload.

[anotheridiot]

The only other thing I read was it seemed like people avoid this problem by going with the solid roller lifters.

I am usually just dealing with flat tappets, and was really considering going into the kits where you put a roller in the gen 1 small blocks so wonder if this is even an issue with those. I just know I ruined a camshaft by just changing lifters on a brand new cam since the cam and lifters need to harden together during break in. But that's flat tappet to roller, so probably different. I do not know if the roller lifters are the same thing or if the cams are hardened more where they just accept the roller on the lifter.

I would just measure the spring height as its installed, put the compression tester hose in a plug, fill it with air and use the in head valve spring compressor to pop the spring off and measure it. Take that to your latest chiltons and see where its supposed to be, pretty sure most are closer to 200 than 300. Thats just what my idiot mind comes to as far as how long it takes to pump that lifter back up due to the spring crushing it down again.

You might need two or three of those little spring compressors though with them looking like 325 pound springs, but I would go there before changing lifters. I remember the good old days of having anti pump up lifters when I started building motors. Just a heavier spring inside.

[Lit549]

It takes a few minutes (???!) for the lifters to pump up? Ummm... sounds suspect. If it's got oil pressure, that should be a pretty much right now kind of thing.

I'd check the preload to be sure it's right. If they get better when they are fully warm, it's warming up and closing up tolerances. "Minutes" sounds like they are set loose to begin with, like maybe they were set 1/4 turn instead of a 1/2 turn preload.

The preload he used is 3/4 past zero lash, and they were all correct. On a cold start they do it but immediately pump up and are fine, once the oil is good and hot i can stop to get gas or whatever and after only maybe 5 min of sitting, it clacks bad for longer, its pretty bad.. I went with this shop because the block is new, everything is new not rebuilt. I know they make their own heads, not sure on cam but its identical to the xr282.. with the covers off i can literally take 2 fingers and press down on the lifter side of rocker with minimal effort, almost all of them are this way... oil pressure is exactly where he said itd be when hot, its like 25psi at idle, 50psi at 65mph.

[Lit549]

The only other thing I read was it seemed like people avoid this problem by going with the solid roller lifters.

I am usually just dealing with flat tappets, and was really considering going into the kits where you put a roller in the gen 1 small blocks so wonder if this is even an issue with those. I just know I ruined a camshaft by just changing lifters on a brand new cam since the cam and lifters need to harden together during break in. But that's flat tappet to roller, so probably different. I do not know if the roller lifters are the same thing or if the cams are hardened more where they just accept the roller on the lifter.

I would just measure the spring height as its installed, put the compression tester hose in a plug, fill it with air and use the in head valve spring compressor to pop the spring off and measure it. Take that to your latest chiltons and see where its supposed to be, pretty sure most are closer to 200 than 300. Thats just what my idiot mind comes to as far as how long it takes to pump that lifter back up due to the spring crushing it down again.

You might need two or three of those little spring compressors though with them looking like 325 pound springs, but I would go there before changing lifters. I remember the good old days of having anti pump up lifters when I started building motors. Just a heavier spring inside.

It seems to be a real common issue with these cam profiles but no real cure.. My last engine was the same, just not as bad and i ended up selling the truck without remedying the issue.. Im calling a few cam manufacturers today and ill post what they say!

[anotheridiot]

It takes a few minutes (???!) for the lifters to pump up? Ummm... sounds suspect. If it's got oil pressure, that should be a pretty much right now kind of thing.

I'd check the preload to be sure it's right. If they get better when they are fully warm, it's warming up and closing up tolerances. "Minutes" sounds like they are set loose to begin with, like maybe they were set 1/4 turn instead of a 1/2 turn preload.

But thats the question, how do you do it, the lifter pukes out its oil to where all the valves look closed. Old way of adjusting when its running when the tapping happens for 3 minutes normally? Can you spit out the oil enough over the engine bay to actually get one tapping and then finding zero when it goes away then adding your preset? I just question where that hydraulic lifter sits when it pukes out the oil. It has to drop since the oil is all getting pushed out. Do you pull the valley plate so you can actually see the lifter up at the top? If the thought is they went a quarter instead of a half, I would think adding an eight turn to all of them would start the process, then another eighth. If all the valves look closed when he pulls the valve cover, those pushrods just have to be buried in the lifter.

[squirrel]

I seriously doubt the problem has anything to do with the amount of preload.

Is it possible that there's an internal leak in the lifter oil galley? Or is it just crappy lifters?

[Lit549]

I seriously doubt the problem has anything to do with the amount of preload.

Is it possible that there's an internal leak in the lifter oil galley? Or is it just crappy lifters?

Its the Gm ls7 lifters so idk? Im probably going yo have to inspect everything very close when i do the lifter swap. From what ive been told the lifters cant keep up with the cam profiles. Idk, VERY frustrating!

[Deaf Bob]

I seriously doubt the problem has anything to do with the amount of preload.

Is it possible that there's an internal leak in the lifter oil galley? Or is it just crappy lifters?

Derby motors are set up on the high end of tolerances.. Run without water makes things grow. Granted we run solid lifters,,

Here is my thought.. maybe lifter bore is too large or out of round?

[SuperBuickGuy]

are you using an oil filter with an anti-reversion valve? how is the bypass in your oil filter adapter? if you are using an open filter, it could bleed back, also if the pressure bypass remains open at engine shut down; it would bleed back into the pan...

[Lit549]

are you using an oil filter with an anti-reversion valve? how is the bypass in your oil filter adapter? if you are using an open filter, it could bleed back, also if the pressure bypass remains open at engine shut down; it would bleed back into the pan...

I have no idea, i run wix filters.. I have no idea how the bypass is?

[SuperBuickGuy]

I have no idea, i run wix filters.. I have no idea how the bypass is?

if you look at the top of the oil filter, you can usually see if there's a baffle or not.... I'll let you google it, but there isn't really rhyme or reason for which have and which don't.... sometimes even for the same motor, one will have it and another won't....